Current (Love) Survey

[dnakase]

I guess I need to get out to the rides/events more. Love on SoCalSVRiders?

To be fair to us old married folks, you should have added these options:

I've dated 1-2 people, (and if my wife finds out she gets the kids and the house.)

There are girls here???

I've found the love of my life on SoCalSVRiders and we'll hookup as soon as the dust settles on the divorce and my wife gets the kids and the house.

Hooked up??? I don't make any of the rides, but will now!

Hooked up? Nope, maybe I need to break down and clean my leathers.

[sugart!ts]

:love:

hahhaha

[racinteach]

I agree and therefore second the nomination....

[midimench]

I'm addressing this to dnakase:

Look, I've been divorced before in California, and I can tell you. There's no legal ramification for infidelity in this state or any other from what I know. This state splits the assets down the middle if you've cheated or you haven't.

Of course we can't split the kids up, but you can share custody. Morality doesn't decide that either. Stability wins that one.

[longraven]

Well, polish up the twin headlights, cause I'm taking the girls for a ride.

Maybe I should check out more of the ride events. Can you actually find love for more than just your bike and a sweet tailpipe, here.

[midimench]

Originally posted by dnakase
I guess I need to get out to the rides/events more. Love on SoCalSVRiders?

To be fair to us old married folks, you should have added these options:

I've dated 1-2 people, (and if my wife finds out she gets the kids and the house.)



Look, I've been divorced before in California, and I can tell you. There's no legal ramification for infidelity in this state or any other from what I know. This state splits the assets down the middle if you've cheated or you haven't.

Of course we can't split the kids up, but you can share custody. Morality doesn't decide that either. Stability wins that one.

[NukleoN]

I think there used to be a special provision for infidelity before CA and other states had no-fault divorce. Of course, I don't think the state should even recognize the sexual union of two consenting adults..but that's another matter. I wouldn't get married (to anyone) if someone paid me....but that's just me...

My advice is to stay unmarried....better not to bet on your emotions and sign some contract which can seriously screw you later. Moreso, better not to bet on the emotions of someone who isn't YOU. :D The divorce rate makes a pretty clear case that despite the best intentions of people in 'love', marriage fails more than half the time, and there's no prize for staying married, so why do it?

I don't marry many things I commit to, including family, business partners, pets, vehicles, homes, bosses, jobs...why on Earth would I marry a person based on the incredibly irrational urges created by the promise of sex and future sex? What if I change my mind? Why would I ever want to be in a situation where I have to have a bunch of red tape if I want to escape the company of a particular person?

I like the 'at will' approach..either party can end it for any reason...just like a good job where employee and boss have to make sure they're both on good behaviour to keep the relationship strong and healthy.

I'm weird...I'm very loyal to the women I am with, but I won't marry any of them, ever....now if I can just get those 5 women in one room I'd be set (KIDDING). :D

Oh, and ask yourself this...you know all the people you could have married but ended up breaking it off with? Aren't you glad you didn't marry them? That's how I look at marriage...it's far too permanent, binding, annoying and transient to bother with, and you don't lose much except for a few discriminatory benefits withheld from unmarried couples (soon to change).

Is it me or does this no marriage thing seem to be catching on? I noticed Tom Leykis is all about this now...but he had to get married 4 times to figure it out (don't get me wrong, Tom rawks...I'm just saying..I've had this figured out for years). :D

*Flame retardant suit, check!* :cool:

[midimench]

Originally posted by NukleoN
I wouldn't get married (to anyone) if someone paid me....but that's just me...


I got married for a little love, a lot of sex and a pinch of Blue Cross benefits. Oh and I forgot, my wife told me to buy a motorcycle so we could ride together....that probably blew my mind the most!

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by midimench
I got married for a little love, a lot of sex and a pinch of Blue Cross benefits.

Amen to that!
:D


oh and i'd get married for that again :D

This time if i get divorced, i am keeping the f'in bike..

[smokescreen]

thank goodness nobody's jaded on this site!

[Darth Lefty]

All the people I know with happy and successful marriages got married in their early early 20s... you get too cynical later...

[HoolieB]

Originally posted by Darth Lefty
All the people I know with happy and successful marriages got married in their early early 20s... you get too cynical later...

Too cynical, and/or too set in your ways. Marriage is all about compromises, and if you're not used to having to make them, I imagine it would be tough to start doing so.

[agirls]

There is more to marriage than the promise of sex for the term of the marriage. If that is all a marriage is to you, then you're right. Don't get married, it won't last.

[harbiho]

Ever hear of this joke:

I had an awesome sex life.................'till I got married!!!!

:D

[cured1]

I don't see why people have to get married. Like Leykis says, There is nothing in it for guys.

I believe you can commit to someone and love them without the contract of marriage.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by harbiho
Ever hear of this joke:

I had an awesome sex life.................'till I got married!!!!

:D


:D

bwahahahha
:lol:

[Kurt'sSV]

Originally posted by honeycured
I don't see why people have to get married. Like Leykis says, There is nothing in it for guys.

I believe you can commit to someone and love them without the contract of marriage.

True. Marriage is just one of our (world wide) traditions. It's significance is the public show of commitment to another person and it also was/is a way of saying "hands off guys, she's mine."

Unfortunately marriage is taken very lightly now a-days (especially in LA) and has lost most of it's significance. I may never get married, but if I do, it will only be once - there will be no divorce - and it will be for my own reasons.

[agirls]

Yes, marriage is taken too lightly. You should not get married just because you think you are in love. I think you need to live with the person for a while and learn everything about them. You will be amazed at how quick certain things you thought were cute are now annoying as hell when you live with them.

I know a few people who swore up and down they would never get married. One of them did get married and he is happily married for 5 years now, because he took it seriously.

A few quick reasons to get married would be the stability factor for your children if you had them together. If someone were to die, a will is not enough. You would have to go through probate and some loser family member could contest the will and draw things out. Not a good thing if your living in a house with your children that is now in the deceased person's name.

I would be pretty pissed if my bf died and say his brother from Costa Rica came up and decided to try and claim our ranch as his where I have worked my ass off helping to build it up with my bf. It sucks, but that kinda stuff happens all the time. Even when people are married! Stupid marriage, it is useless. (I am only KIDDING).

[Dom]

Marriage really isn't taken too lightly and the prevailing rates of divorce really aren't as bad as people say. Back in the day people just didn't get divorced, they were separated legally or just geographically. On top of that if you are in an abusive or oppressive marriage you should get out.

Personally, I plan on getting a prenup and making money a non-issue even if she has more than me. That way it doesn't have to get ugly should things go south.

[aweesan]

HAHA! I'm still laughing at the findings that men will live longer when embroiled in marriage while women's outcomes are inversely proportional (for the "nothing in it for guys" comment) :cool:

Marriage did begin as a business arrangement "back in the day" and has since evolved into something else. Like anything, it's what you make it. Nobody really needs a pice of paper to be committed- nobody reads like they used to; most people don't care (agreeing with Hoolie) Before you enter into the marriage, you have to regulate your expectations with reality-- something the wedding industry or Hollywood doesn't want us to hear, be prepared for a lot of compromise and creativity, and people can be better for it. Thing is, you don't have to be married to do that either :grin:

Wow, but back to motorcycles; if it weren't for them, I wouldn't be having as much fun- however you look at it! (and that ties into this thread completely!)

Originally posted by Dom

Personally, I plan on getting a prenup and making money a non-issue even if she has more than me. That way it doesn't have to get ugly should things go south.


Dom, you're such a lawyer! :squid: HAHAHA!

:lol:

[Dom]

I know, plus I'm taking community property right now :p it's true though I just don't see what the big deal is with a prenup.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by aweesan
Before you enter into the marriage, you have to regulate your expectations with reality-- something the wedding industry or Hollywood doesn't want us to hear, be prepared for a lot of compromise and creativity, and people can be better for it. Thing is, you don't have to be married to do that either :grin:






same thing goes for a relationship..
you just usually don't need a lawyer to break up with a bf/gf.

[Jerm]

Originally posted by honeycured
I don't see why people have to get married. Like Leykis says, There is nothing in it for guys.

I believe you can commit to someone and love them without the contract of marriage.

Tax break?

[smokescreen]

I think-
a- marriage is a public display of a promise of lifelong commitment to one's soulmate.

b- requires that you don't go into thinking your sm will be perfect as soon as he/she_______. that's some shit, and will ruin shit real quick.

c- it's super helpful to try just being friends first. If you find that you love your best friend soo dearly, that you are willing to accept their flaws, and love them soo dearly that you can do everything together and not tire of each other... you may have something.

d- don't get married if you can't be selfless. If you think of yourself before the person you claim to love more than all else, you 're lieing to yourself and everyone else, and aren't ready for the commitment.

e- it's a commitment, to many things, on many levels. If you are ready for that commitment, great. If not, avoid it like the plague.


I am always soo bummed to hear mombers say that they would love to come ride, but their spouse is totally against it. What is this? Did you pick up riding without discussion? Did he/she change views on the subject upon exchange of vows? It IS NOT selfless to pick up a hobby that is potentially deadly without discussion, nor is it selfless to squash someone's joy for your own piece of mind. I'm scared every day of loosing my wife, but I never hinder her from risking her life for fun. That's just keeping someone from living right.

[CK50]

+1

[NukleoN]

Ah ok...that wasn't so bad. You're a very reasonable bunch here...again...I see that over and over. On the R1 forum...well let's just say I probably would have gotten death threats from 10 members who are related with a total IQ of about 40.

Ah yes..marriage...marriage. TWOOOOO WUUUUV.

But seriously, I've been with my girlfriend 8 years...without marriage. Still going strong and yep, she is a true friend. However, I am going to be brutally honest...I don't generally seek out women for friends...I seek them out for SEX assuming I don't have a girlfriend (though I do have female friends who I don't seek sex from and I value that). Let me clarify this a bit...my initial attraction to women is purely sexual...but I choose among those I am attracted to based on less superficial things of course...

If we become friends...great...if not, it probably won't last..but my primary attraction to women is of a sexual nature. Perhaps that's why I am only allowed 'one' woman at a time even though sometimes I wish I could be with many...it's because there is a written (or unwritten) commitment to monogamy between partners...I won't cheat and I have the idea that my girlfriend won't cheat...although I can only control *my* behaviour. If she decides to do 3 of my closest friends, well, I better hope my level of legal commitment to her is minimal.

While many say that you should live together first...why not just live together? Who said there had to be another step beyond the legally less oppressive status of living together? Yes, tis true that there are discriminatory laws which favor married couples over unmarried couples...but this is ever-changing. No longer is there common-law marriage. Divorce is no-fault in most states. Gay couples are recognized as domestic partners, and yet strangely, straight couples are not unless they go for broke and get married...that is out and out discrimination. There are a lot of laws in this country paying way too much attention to old moral codes from Draconian days past...and frankly, I think the state/Feds have no business in the certification of adult, consenting relationships. I don't just avoid marriage for practical reasons (read: alimony and legal battles with divorce lawyers) but for protest reasons as well. Gay people can't get married? I won't get married. Straight couples aren't allowed to be domestic partners? I won't fall for that and get married because that's my only current option with regard to legal recognition.

Divorce rates are sky high...depending on what stats you look at, it's at least 50% and sometimes higher than that. I don't see any point to getting married because you can't control the actions of your partner, and that's assuming you know the actions of your partner. Plus, people simply will change their minds...I'd like to be able to change my mind down the road if I want, for any reason, without legal traps or a prenup which can simply be ignored by some judge with a chip on his/her shoulder. And alimony..don't get me started!

Why sign a contract (prenup) to undo a contract (marriage)? Seems simpler just not to get married in the first place..enjoy your time together and if it works, great, if not...well let's hope there were some good years, but there's no point system in place...if you don't stay together, it's not the end of the world. The fact is, if you're not happy with someone...leave...pretty simple. Certain problems can be fixed...but sometimes it's good to know when to wash your hands of the situation and move on.

Here's the logic I use...if you're going to stay together forever, you don't need marriage. If you're going to split up despite your best efforts, you shouldn't have gotten married to begin with.

[sandie]

nuke, honest question here...what does your girlfriend think of your feelings toward marriage? i think i remember you saying once that she has typically christian beliefs when it comes to marriage...does she think you're going to change your mind eventually?

seriously, i'm totally curious

[NukleoN]

nuke, honest question here...what does your girlfriend think of your feelings toward marriage? i think i remember you saying once that she has typically christian beliefs when it comes to marriage...does she think you're going to change your mind eventually?

seriously, i'm totally curious

Howdy Sandie..I am very up front with her about it...she's a sort of lazy Catholic...doesn't take it too seriously but she definitely believes in a God (Catholic version I was raised with). She doesn't worry too much about the morality angle..her parents do I think but they don't factor into my decision nor do they try to bother us with it. She knows I am a good person (as I know she is) and we're loyal to each other..and great friends. I also have a live and let live approach with her...she doesn't try to browbeat me into not riding or anything, and I don't browbeat her into not hanging with her female friends, buying a Louis Vuitton wallet (heh) or whatever she likes to do....we celebrate the things we have in common and we don't try to force our relationship into places it won't do well in....I think one mistake couples make is that they try to own the other person..thinking somehow they're one unit rather than two individual people with individual goals, friends, dreams, etc. which just happen to overlap in certain areas.

Bottom line..she's ok with it...and after 8 years we're doing great...and I hope it goes another 8 and then some....we're pretty frank and open about things. ;)

Hope that answers your question. :D

[sandie]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

i think i need to ask her directly ;)

[sugart!ts]

Nuke.. will you be the ring bearer at my next wedding :D

[J.Moto]

Marriage.... F'ING SCARY!

I have been raised by separated parents, neither of whom have had a successful relationship.

If I get married, I will only do it once, so I gotta try to do it right.

[Setter32]

....I just need someone.......to clean my 3 toilets...

.....why does it have to be........so complicated?!......:sad: ....










:D

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by Setter32
....I just need someone.......to clean my 3 toilets...

.....why does it have to be........so complicated?!......:sad: ....



:D


here is a perfect match for you...............bitch..................
:D

[summitsix]

Originally posted by harbiho
Ever hear of this joke:

I had an awesome sex life.................'till I got married!!!!

:D

Yep, and that is all too true. Been married once before because the sex was just too good, and hell, I worshipped that p*^&y and said yes to anything, including marriage because I didn't know any better. Well, wasn't to much longer before the sex went downhill.

Fucking dumb ass move on my part. Was much more selective the 2nd time around and made a good choice. This time around the sex is OK, but pretty frequent. Great job, good money, full benefits and a good wife overall so I ain't complaining.

Just hope it lasts ;)

[HoolieB]

Originally posted by summitsix
Yep, and that is all too true. Been married once before because the sex was just too good, and hell, I worshipped that p*^&y and said yes to anything, including marriage because I didn't know any better. Well, wasn't to much longer before the sex went downhill.

Fucking dumb ass move on my part. Was much more selective the 2nd time around and made a good choice. This time around the sex is OK, but pretty frequent. Great job, good money, full benefits and a good wife overall so I ain't complaining.

Just hope it lasts ;)


I'd just love to know how she describes you to strangers. :p

[sandie]

funny...i was thinkin the same thing

sounds like it's gonna last a REAL long time :rolleyes:

;) ;) ;)

[J.Moto]

Originally posted by joose
here is a perfect match for you...............bitch..................
:D

FUNNEEEEEEEEEE!

[Setter32]

....the estrogen level in here.........is a bit high for me....

.....I'm startin to get a nose bleed...

.....I'm leavin....[-( ....









:D

[HoolieB]

Originally posted by Setter32
....the estrogen level in here.........is a bit high for me....

.....I'm startin to get a nose bleed...

.....I'm leavin....[-( ....









:D

You'll be back. You know you will.

;)

[sandie]

that old saying really is true! you can't live with em...you can't live without em :D

[NukleoN]

Nuke.. will you be the ring bearer at my next wedding

Joose, one divorce not enough for you? LOL. I'll go to weddings..as long as someone else is paying for them. :D

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

i think i need to ask her directly

Sandie, ya asked me an honest question and I gave you an honest answer. There you have it. :D Are you thinking that no woman in her right mind would stay with someone for 8 years without getting married? She would probably like to be married, but she's ok with it how it is as well.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by NukleoN
Joose, one divorce not enough for you? LOL. I'll go to weddings..as long as someone else is paying for them. :D
l.

technically it wasnt a divorce :p

I'm in no rush, but i guess i am a big ol romantic at heart.. next time i will go in with a greater sense of self, a realistic (moreso than what i had early 20's) expectation of a partnership, more life experience and a hell of a lot more tolerance and self esteem.

anyway.. everyone knows the first one is a gimme

[Slaughter]

Been a most interesting thread.

Sunny and I have both been married/divorced twice. No kids by choice for both of us.

We have very similar interests and if we weren't lovers, we'd still be friends - not that those are mutually exclusive.

We scuba dive, do the motorcycle thing (I race, she rides/does track days) - share photography adventures.

Maybe more

[sandie]

Originally posted by NukleoN
Sandie, ya asked me an honest question and I gave you an honest answer. There you have it. :D Are you thinking that no woman in her right mind would stay with someone for 8 years without getting married? She would probably like to be married, but she's ok with it how it is as well.

thanks for your honest answer...i just suspect that she may say something else...i have no idea what she or any other woman thinks...but i'm pretty sure their sig others don't usually know either ;) no offense to you or your girl or anything...i think it's be AWESOME if i asked her and she was totally onboard with it!

[KyleThompson]

I don't believe I will ever go down that road, and I have no problem with that. I have friends that have been married for all of 3 months, 3 MONTHS!!! What the hell for I say? To be all gooey and mushy about getting 'married'? With the divorce rate at 50 percent and climbing I think it would be the more appropriate thing do not get married,

Nukleon you got it down, and good for you for finding a partner that feels the same.... or that recieves your logic with open arms.

I've been with my girlfriend for the better part of four years, and recently she asked for a promise ring for her b-day. What the hell is a promise ring anyway? I see it as a pre-engagement ring honestly now. I don't know yet if I want to spend the REST OF MY LIFE with her, but I dont see a problem with it, if that makes any sense. Getting married just seems like something that is practically useless in this day and age.

Although I'de be hard pressed to find another female that can actually tolerate my ideology, and not bash me for having hope in a hopeless world....... uh oh........getting too deep........ VROOOOOOMMMM motorcycles are cool arent they?

[gaian]

I was married for 14 years and enjoyed it (well, the first 13 anyway). We lived together (in sin! - lol) for a year, but I wanted the world to recognise my commitment to her, which is why I proposed.

I must admit now, seeing her remarried and living in a big 5 bedroom house driving her Volvo wagon, while I live in a crappy condo and pay as much in child support as I do for the mortgage, I would never remarry.

One thing I find amusing though (in a twisted kind of way). The anti-gay marriage brigade want to prevent it happening to preserve the sanctity of marriage (whatever does that mean?) and yet Britney Spears gets married for what..48hrs in Vegas and then gets a divorce. Explain exactly how does that preserve the sanctity. I've had colds last longer.

[NukleoN]

thanks for your honest answer...i just suspect that she may say something else...i have no idea what she or any other woman thinks...but i'm pretty sure their sig others don't usually know either no offense to you or your girl or anything...i think it's be AWESOME if i asked her and she was totally onboard with it!

I hear ya Sandie..no doubt she might word things differently. She would probably marry me if I asked her tomorrow...but I have expressed to her that my current level commitment is my 10, my highest setting, my everything..my 'total' commitment. So, marriage for me isn't a 'next step' because living with her and buying a house with her is as commited as I get. ;)

If there was a next step called 'Flairrage' which comes after marriage...then many women would feel slighted if they couldn't get a guy to flairry them,

'Sure...he married me..but he won't FLAIRRY me...bastard!' Why is he so afraid of commitment??'

'I went to my friend's Flarraige...it was so beautiful...I don't want to die an old wife, married and miserable..why won't he flairry me??? I want it ALL, not half a relationship.'

Many women might suggest a woman demand Flairrage or nothing...flairry me or I will find a replacement! If you're a guy who married a woman after she demanded you marry her or she'd leave...well, all I can say is you're in for a short marriage and a long divorce. That's like saying, 'love me forever or I will find another warm body to replace you!'. How genuine is that? It's like a business deal gone bad...

It's an arbitrary moral contruct that two people need to be 'married' at all...why even mention it otherwise? It's no wonder women feel the need to be married when they are besieged by cultural reminders to be married. I mean, they hear about the whole 'one day my prince will come theme' from a very early age. Bride and Marriage magazines fill store shelves...religions are quick to judge women who aren't married or who have kids out of wedlock...at least, that has traditionally been the case. How many groom magazines are there? heh.

But yeah..my girlfriend is totally cool...open minded enough to see that what we have is good, if but a little unconventional. However, I think we're on to something...we're in it coz we want to be, and every month/year we're together is another year we're in it coz we want to be. We're each our own people, with individual identities, on good behaviour because we want to be and because the other isn't held to any contract or legal/financial repercussion for leaving the relationship.

A relationship is like walking along the road of life with someone....as long as you walk together, you may find it mutually beneficial...but if you decide to go your separate ways...so be it..there will be others who will share your journey, and they don't always have to be people you're in a sexual relationship with....some of the greatest joys in life (like riding) are things our significant others may not understand or enjoy, but that's ok...as long as two people understand and respect where their commonalities and differences lie the partnership should thrive.

When people try to own the other person, crawl inside their brain and nest up, issuing edicts about who the other can see, where you they go, what they can buy, etc....well, it's a recipe for disaster. Thus, I think marriage by nature breeds a certain amount of false hope because it's an ideal which doesn't really match human nature, but that's just my opinion.

We don't marry our friends...why marry people you choose to have sex/live with?

[NukleoN]

What the hell is a promise ring anyway?

Heya Kyle...

The promise ring thing is just a test to see how 'serious' you are about making a legal commitment (eventually) to your girlfriend. The next thing you know she'll want an engagement and then marriage...you know the drill. :D

But you see...now is the time to break it to her if you don't plan to get married...see, we can plan all we want for the 'rest of our lives' when it comes to predictable things like income, taxes, housing investments, interest rates...but emotions are quite unpredictable, and that's assuming you aren't the last one to know if something changes (or if she has a change of heart).

So....seeing how your behaviour is the only behaviour you can control, why 'bet' on your emotions with something like marriage? If she loves you for you, she will want to be with you no matter what label the state puts on your relationship...after all, you're promising monogamy and all that stuff, right?

I'm cool with parties, public announcements, handfasting, symbolic jewelry and cheesy candy and flowers...but I won't be roped into some state contract called marriage...to me it just seems unnecessary at best, and a relationship killer and/or money sink at worst.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by KyleThompson
I
I've been with my girlfriend for the better part of four years, and recently she asked for a promise ring for her b-day. What the hell is a promise ring anyway? I see it as a pre-engagement ring honestly now. I don't know yet if I want to spend the REST OF MY LIFE with her, but I dont see a problem with it, if that makes any sense. Getting married just seems like something that is practically useless in this day and age.


Promise ring= I promise to get you a bigger one later :p

[Mohawk]

Differnet strokes for different folks. Some like the idea of getting married, while other run from it like its the plague.

I would like to be married, but live in seperate housing, that way we can still have our space. No matter how sweet a person is or how nice they can be, sometimes you just gotta get away from everyone.

If I get married, I have one stipulation, Elvis is the minister or pastor or whatever they are calling them these days.

[agirls]

Originally posted by Mohawk
If I get married, I have one stipulation, Elvis is the minister or pastor or whatever they are calling them these days.

Plenty of those in Vegas!!!

[bckwerd]

hey nuke, i read your post about relationships/marriage etc and i have a question for you...

do you plan on having kids?

[NukleoN]

hey nuke, i read your post about relationships/marriage etc and i have a question for you...

do you plan on having kids?


Hi there,

I don't currently plan on having children, but if I did, I still wouldn't get married. Kids have their own set of protective laws which are attached to them whether one is married or not. I may change my mind later tho...hard to say at this point.

[Savage]

as a child of divorce and a cheating parent, and a kid growing up seeing every single family member (aunts/uncles) go through divorces...you could say I'm not exactly fond of marriages. Well most marriages that begin prematurely anyways. My deal is you have to be with them for at least 5 years, and a good chunk of that is living together. By then you'll truly know the person inside and out.

Here's another question to throw out to you guys.

Does having a bike garner more attention from the opposite sex?
It seems like since I got this bike it's attracted two types of people.
1) idiots in cars wanting to race
2) floozy girls who pretty much within 5 minutes of talking are willing to get on their back for you.

Niether of which I'm looking for.

Also when the day does come for marriage for myself, prenup is gonna be involved. Whether she has more cash than me or not. I've seen some nasty stuff w/ family where they get taken for everything they have and then even more.

[Dom]

it helps if you're married when you die on a side note.

[sandie]

yeah, suavedg...i think the marriage of your parents or other family members close to you, and how that was perceived by you at a young age, has a lot to do with how you end up viewing marriage when you're an adult...in most cases anyway (nuke is excluded from this blanket statement of course ;) )

it's sad that marriage has taken on such a negative connotation

signed,
sandie
"cheerleader for teh luv!"

[HoolieB]

Originally posted by sandie
it's sad that marriage has taken on such a negative connotation

signed,
sandie
"cheerleader for teh luv!"

If you have a positive image of marriage, then don't let someone else's experience color your ideals. It's just like the "wear your gear" thread -- each of us has valid reasons (to us, at least) for doing what we do and believing what we believe.

:hug:

signed,

HoolieB
"Happy Old Married Broad"

[smokescreen]

after six years of childless marital bliss, I'm still all for it.

I know Jules woulda stayed with me even if I just said lets live together, but that would've been selfish of me, and that's exactly the problem with most relationships, is wanting for yourself, because most people have more love for self than for anybody else.

When you've been with someone for years, and you know what they want, and your love for them outdoes your selflove... well then it's pretty easy to verify this kind of commitment.

All that said, I don't think marriage is not something that you get through payment to the county, or verification though a church. Marriage is a very personal commitment. I think some of the prettiest marriages I've ever seen had no paper trails.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by smokescreen
after six years of childless marital bliss, I'm still all for it.

I know Jules woulda stayed with me even if I just said lets live together, but that would've been selfish of me, and that's exactly the problem with most relationships, is wanting for yourself, because most people have more love for self than for anybody else.

When you've been with someone for years, and you know what they want, and your love for them outdoes your selflove... well then it's pretty easy to verify this kind of commitment.

All that said, I don't think marriage is not something that you get through payment to the county, or verification though a church. Marriage is a very personal commitment. I think some of the prettiest marriages I've ever seen had no paper trails.


:love:

well said

[Buellba Fett]

This guy might be on to something... (well, when he was alive).

Perfect love is rare indeed - for to be a lover will require that you continually have the subtlety of the very wise, the flexibility of the child, the sensitivity of the artist, the understanding of the philosopher, the acceptance of the saint, the tolerance of the scholar and the fortitude of the certain. -Leo Buscaglia, author, speaker and professor (1924-1998)

[sandie]

holy cow...thats YOU hoolie!!!!!! ;)

[HoolieB]

That's a beautiful quote.

We've had 21+ years to work on that, so hopefully we've graduated to "less flawed". "Perfect" is probably a few years away yet. ;)

When a truly committed, long-term relationship most shows its value is when there is tragedy. The strength drawn from one another is amazing. I would hope each of you knows the kind of love that can carry you through the most trying of times.

[svcat]

Love is...

Quitting your job
Moving countries (continents actually)
Taking on a step-daughter when you don't like kids
Getting a crappy job, but sticking with it
Having a son, still don't like kids but LOVE the boy

and staying around, because you love your wife.

I wouldn't change a thing, I love America and love my wife and son.

ps. I'm taking my citizenship test on Friday. This is still a colony, right?


:raise:

[Savage]

citizenship test?

you have to take a test if you're a foreigner to claim residence or what?

shit am I not looking forward to that.

[sandie]

i think you don't HAVE to take a citizenship test, unless you wanna vote and stuff...you can jsut get married to become a legal resident ;)

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by suavedg
citizenship test?

you have to take a test if you're a foreigner to claim residence or what?

shit am I not looking forward to that.

yeah, you take a test. Easy to pass though..

Originally posted by sandie
i think you don't HAVE to take a citizenship test, unless you wanna vote and stuff...you can jsut get married to become a legal resident ;)

yeah, first you become a resident then a citizen.

[sandie]

but, you don't HAVE to become a citizen, right?

[sugart!ts]

right, you just don't get certain things like voting, and social security.. ( i think)

[agirls]

No, you do not have to be a citizen. My brother married a Japanese girl while he was in Japan and when they moved here, she did not want to give up her Japanese citizenship. If anything ever happened to my bro, she would go back to Japan because that is where her family is. It was a pain in the ass for her to become legal though. She was her for 6 months on a passport, then she was illegal for another 4 months until the paperwork was done. And she is married to someone in the armed forces. And every 10 years she has to go through the process again and renew her papers.

[Setter32]

Originally posted by smokescreen
after six years of childless marital bliss, I'm still all for it.

I know Jules woulda stayed with me even if I just said lets live together, but that would've been selfish of me, and that's exactly the problem with most relationships, is wanting for yourself, because most people have more love for self than for anybody else.

When you've been with someone for years, and you know what they want, and your love for them outdoes your selflove... well then it's pretty easy to verify this kind of commitment.

All that said, I don't think marriage is not something that you get through payment to the county, or verification though a church. Marriage is a very personal commitment. I think some of the prettiest marriages I've ever seen had no paper trails.

.....well said.....

.....the reason that most marriages do not work out............is because those people go into it.........looking to get something out of it.......

....or to put it in another way............they go into it for selfish reasons.....

.....bad foundation..........for a long lasting loving relationship....

....

.....if you want to know what a marriage............or better yet..........what a loving relationship should be.......

....read O Henry's....."The Gift of The Magi"......

.....I think that story set a standard for me........

......but I think........unfortunately..........finding someone who would reciprocate your sacrifices.............has the same odds as finding the winning lotto #s.....

....

.....ummmmm....................bitches....










:D

[NukleoN]

I'm guessing that most people marry for lofty and noble reasons, but the stats show that 50% or more of them end up in divorce. I submit that despite your best intentions, you just don't know what will happen, nor can you control the actions of your partner (assuming you are aware of those actions). Thus, a relationship is a trial which never ends....there are degrees of trust, sure, but I would never put a marriage 'stamp' on any relationship, especially one based on the emotionally-volatile chemical reaction most of us call 'love'.

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by NukleoN
I'm guessing that most people marry for lofty and noble reasons, but the stats show that 50% or more of them end up in divorce. I submit that despite your best intentions, you just don't know what will happen, nor can you control the actions of your partner (assuming you are aware of those actions). Thus, a relationship is a trial which never ends....there are degrees of trust, sure, but I would never put a marriage 'stamp' on any relationship, especially one based on the emotionally-volatile chemical reaction most of us call 'love'.

yes we know.. you've said it again and again..

[NukleoN]

yes we know.. you've said it again and again..

So to connect the logic here....the bottom line is despite the best intentions of married couples, at least half get it wrong. Seems obvious that marriage is a bad risk. :D There's a reason I keep bringing it up because people are talking about the noble and 'selfless' reasons they get married.

I don't think not getting married (or not having kids) is the least bit selfish, but it may be different than what your partner wants. I guess that would be something to talk through. ;)

Another scenario...say your best friend handed you a contract and said, 'Sign this contract saying you'll be my best friend forever, or I'm leaving you as a friend! I'm not gonna sit around being your second best friend when all my friends have signed contracts with a BEST friend!'

Furthermore, what if the law stated that leaving your contractual best-friend would obligate you to Friendimony®...basically, you'd have to allow your friend to come over and eat out of your fridge, play your PS2 and muck around at your place at least twice a week?

Would you sign it? Would you sign it with a prenup?

Why is a best friend and a 'partner' any different? Why do we marry one type of friend we have sex with (with dramatic statistical failure) and yet we don't marry other types of friends?

See what I am getting at here? Check your assumptions..marriage only exists because someone invented it...but if there were no marriage, we'd all still be in and out of relationships and probably not discussing this on the Internets™. :D

[Setter32]

Originally posted by NukleoN
I'm guessing that most people marry for lofty and noble reasons

...you've guessed wrong....

....most of them would like to think of themselves as such........

....and do not recognize the real reasons............until it's pointed out to them...........by some asshole.....:hug:








:D

[sugart!ts]

I've enjoyed reading the advice/experiences from both sides.
My bf and i are both divorced (kinda), and the topic of marriage has come up quite a bit.
Its just interesting to read.. some view at it as a purely contractual/legal obligation, others see it as a spiritual union, others as a fate worse than death but most of the "successful" marriages see it as a partnership.

[NukleoN]

and do not recognize the real reasons............until it's pointed out to them...........by some asshole.....

Thanks Setter...*sniff*, I take that as a compliment. Always the voice of cynicism..I mean, reason...sometimes both. :D :hug:

but most of the "successful" marriages see it as a partnership

Yep, there are fantastically successful marriages...and I would guess those relationships would have thrived with any label whether it be marriage, friendship, partners, bf/gf, etc. ;) My philosophy is to keep life simple and uncomplicated. I also agree with Dom that there are still some discriminatory benefits conferred to married couples...but that is changing fast....soon other types of relationships will either enjoy those benefits or will be able to work around the built-in benefits of marriage.

As far as I know, the only real benefit that can't easily be worked around with marriage is hospital visitation....but I think nowadays even that is changing...I should be able to note somewhere who is allowed and who isn't allowed to see me in the hospital, regardless of whether they are 'family' or not (we don't all get along with all of our family members anyway).

[Setter32]

Originally posted by NukleoN
Thanks Setter...*sniff*, I take that as a compliment. Always the voice of cynicism..I mean, reason...sometimes both. :D :hug:





.....wasn't referrin to you.......as the asshole....

.....but I'll be more than happy to refer to you as such..........if that tickles you.....

.....

.....my statements may be cynical.........but I also consider it to be an accurate observation......

.....but this doesn't mean I'm anti marriage......

.....I hope to be marry one day...............but for the right reasons......

.....that might be....easier said than done though.....;)









:D

[sugart!ts]

Originally posted by NukleoN
:


Yep, there are fantastically successful marriages...and I would guess those relationships would have thrived with any label whether it be marriage, friendship, partners, bf/gf, etc. ;)

yes, you are probably right.
to quote jen

"i kinda dig the idea of marriage"

[Buck]

Originally posted by NukleoN
Thanks Setter...*sniff*, I take that as a compliment. Always the voice of cynicism..I mean, reason...sometimes both. :D :hug:



Yep, there are fantastically successful marriages...and I would guess those relationships would have thrived with any label whether it be marriage, friendship, partners, bf/gf, etc. ;) My philosophy is to keep life simple and uncomplicated and still fully benefit...but I also agree with Dom that there are still some discriminatory benefits conferred to married couples...but that is changing fast....soon other types of relationships will either enjoy those benefits or will be able to work around the built-in benefits of marriage.

As far as I know, the only real benefit that can't easily be worked around with marriage is hospital visitation....but I think nowadays even that is changing...I should be able to note somewhere who is allowed and who isn't allowed to see me in the hospital, regardless of whether they are 'family' or not (we don't all get along with all of our family members anyway).

Here's some reading and food for thought...

Here in M'erica, and according to the General Accounting Office of the Federal Government, there are some approximately 1,138 rights and responsibilities that are conferred with Marriage in this Country. The report is available HERE (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf).

While things are changing in a few places in the Country, largely it’s getting worse. California and a few other places have some good State Laws that protect Same-Sex families with respect to some issues. But, this is limited to State issues covered by the Law, and is not as sweeping as the Marriage act.

In terms of the Federal Government, here are just a few of the so-called “Special Rights” afforded only to heterosexual married couples, and how they effect Me:

How retirement laws discriminate against gays and lesbians:

Whether you’re five or 40 years away from retirement, if you have a same-sex partner and you’re saving for your family’s future, federal law fails to recognize your partner as it does a spouse.
When a husband or wife dies, the surviving spouse can move money from the deceased’s retirement plan into his or her own plan without taxation or limitations. But because same-sex couples are treated as strangers under the tax code, a same-sex surviving partner incurs significant penalties and restrictions when transferring a deceased’s retirement plan.
Two retirement options in which many American businesses and employees invest are 401(k) plans and individual retirement accounts, or IRAs. In both cases, a federal law called the Employment Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) allows a surviving spouse to roll over, or transfer, the deceased’s IRA or 401(k) plan into his or her own plan. The plan, then, continues to grow without being taxed.
Surviving same-sex partners, however, are unable to roll over their partners’ plans into their own and are heavily taxed on the money they receive. This is because same-sex partners are typically restricted to receiving the benefits in lump-sum payments, which has considerable disadvantages.
First, the surviving partner has to receive funds from the entire retirement plan all at once or in a short period. Such a payout is heavily taxed and may push the recipient into a higher tax bracket. Further, the surviving partner is prevented from allowing the money to grow tax-free. Depending on where the money was invested, the share value may have actually declined from the original purchase price but the survivor is forced to cash out immediately, rather than wait for market conditions to improve.

Continued Health Insurance:

When a married heterosexual employee loses or leaves a job, employers are required to offer the employee – and his or her spouse – the opportunity to pay for continued health coverage for up to 18 months, under a federal law called the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986, or COBRA.
But when a gay or lesbian employee loses or leaves a job, federal law does not guarantee the employee the opportunity to purchase continued health coverage for a domestic partner, even if the employer-sponsored plan originally covered that partner. This is true even though it is the former employee, not the employer, who pays the premium for this temporary coverage.
Fortunately, some fair-minded employers have taken it upon themselves to extend health coverage to domestic partners of former employees. But until the federal law is updated to recognize same-sex couples, GLBT families cannot count on such protections in times of job transitions.

Social Security Survivor Benefits:

Although gay and lesbian Americans contribute to Social Security throughout their working lives, their families are denied the same benefits heterosexual Americans receive upon the death of a spouse. Specifically:
• Partners who are Retired or Disabled are denied surviving spouse benefits because they were denied the right to marry.
• Partners raising children are denied Social Security surviving parent benefits because they were previously denied the right to legally marry.
• Children may also be denied Social Security surviving child benefits if the deceased parent was barred from securing a legal relationship to his or her child through second-parent adoption.
This loss of income can be substantial. For example, surviving partners who are 60 years old will lose an average of $9,780 a year – or approximately $166,000 if they live to the average life expectancy of 77. (Based on Social Security Administration calculations that Social Security survivor benefits averaged $815 per month in 2002.)
If there are surviving children, the loss of income is potentially even greater. For example, when a working parent was denied the opportunity to establish a legal relationship to his or her child through second-parent adoption, that child will also be denied the right to Social Security survivor benefits upon that parent’s death. This could translate to a loss of $900 per month, or $10,000 per year, for a child whose parent worked for at least 10 years and earned at least $50,000 in the last year of his or her life.

Taxation of Domestic Partner Benefits:

As a growing number of employers offer domestic partner benefits, gays and lesbians are discovering a hitch – domestic partner benefits, unlike health benefits provided to married heterosexual couples, are taxed as income. As a result, gay and lesbian employees take home relatively less income than their married heterosexual co-workers who perform exactly the same job.
For example, a gay or lesbian employee earning $40,000 a year and receiving domestic partner health insurance benefits toward which the employer contributes $250 a month would owe income and payroll taxes on a total of $43,000 in income at the end of the year.
A married heterosexual employee earning the same salary and receiving the same health benefits for his or her spouse would owe income and payroll taxes on only $40,000.

(Excerpted from the HRC.org website’s marriage project HERE (http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Partners&CONTENTID=14362&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm)).


As you can read, this is far from equal, even though I pay the same taxes as everyone else.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

Sorry to post such a monster, but it seems like so many have such a different understanding of what’s happening right now in M’erica.

[EIREANN]

My sister got married 3 years ago, and is a devout Catholic. During the wedding planning they had to jump through so many hoops it was ridiculous...
- I had to fill out paperwork about my sister and her character, and he had to have someone do the same.
- They had to go to marriage counseling
- They had to take tests about each other and what married life will be like (i.e. how many bank accounts will you have. Will they be joint accounts, and who will pay what part of the bills if there are separate accounts)
- They had to do extra counseling if their answers varied to much.
- They had to go off to a retreat together and do more of the get to know each other stuff

this was all annoying as hell, but I did realize something... They were forced to look at all the details you forget about when your all gooey in love. It was amazing to see how many other couples that were doing this with them had never even talked about these things...

kinda rambly, but I kinda feel that a lot of marriages fail because the two people dont really know what they are getting into. This of course isnt always the case... But I think the divorce rate would be a lot lower if Marriage was taken more seriously...

*** feel free to ignore the ramblings of the single and unmarried girl ;) ***

[NukleoN]

Good work Buck listing some of the details and rights automagically given to married couples. Why is the state so involved in the affairs of consenting adults in a private relationship?

If the state *is* going to recognize relationships, they ought to at least be consistent. To that end, I fully support gay marriage. As for domestic partnerships...I find it shocking that heterosexual couples cannot even qualify for this unless they're 62 or older! Yes, some companies recognize hetero domestic partnership, but it's not a protected state right like homosexual domestic partnership which they *have* to recognize.

This is outright discrimination and I've written the ACLU about it. I know I've said this before, but I think gay and straight couples should have the right to marriage, domestic partnership OR unmarried couple benefits (such as hospital visitation given to married people). If I have to make a list of eligible people to see me in the hospital (in the event that I don't have the capacity to speak for myself), I would do it..much like a will.

There are contracts to get around a lot of these benefits which come with marriage but as you've listed, perhaps there is more discrimination than people realize. Certainly, there is still discrimination against homosexual unions and a complete denial of hetero domestic partnerships.

The state system to recognize one's choice of sexual partner is jacked up. It's over-complicated and a bad business idea few would enter into if didn't involve a strong drive for sex (which can adversely affect our judgement).

Catholic weddings..don't get me started! :D The best way to avoid the scrutiny of a church is to simply leave the church out of it...but if you're a believer I guess you don't have that luxury...or at least, not if you're trying to 'do religion right'. Thankfully, I'm not weighed down by the arbitrary edicts of religion.

Here's a question...how many people here got or gave their partners an ultimatum to get married, and, how many of you will be brave enough to admit it? ;)

.....wasn't referrin to you.......as the asshole....

.....but I'll be more than happy to refer to you as such..........if that tickles you.....

No it's ok..just checking heh...I guess I'm feeling a little like a bad guy for being so cynical...but I don't see it as cynicism so much as realism...and as they say, 'the truth hurts'. :D :evil:

[racinteach]

Damn Buck....you need to work a few more hours at work..if you have this kind of time....good points though...

[Som]

I don't think gay marriages should be legalized because I don't think marriage should have anything to do with the law in the first place. All coming down to separation of church and state.

To me, marriage is a religious institution. The basis of so many arguments against gay marriage are religious in nature. The law shouldn't have the power to force churches to marry gay people. By the same token, there shouldn't be legal recognition of marriage, either. That said, if a gay couple wants to get married, all they should have to do is find a church that is okay with marrying a gay couple.

Ideally, all legal advantages of marriage would be transferred to "civil unions" or whatever name you want to give it. Civil unions wouldn't discriminate between hetero and homo. Straight and gay people would both be viewed the same in the eyes of the law. The law would then cease to recognize marriages entirely -- it's something for different religions to deal with, not the government.

- Som

[codzilla70]

As an American man (CA native) that married a foriegner in his early 30's, I some how don't have anything to add to this thread:confused:

Um.....Just for the record I meant that I was in my early 30's when I married my WIFE not that I married a foriegn man in his 30's:o

[sandie]

and that speaks VOLUMES about you cod! ;)

[smokescreen]

I can't believe this thread hasn't caused any violent flaming!?

Maybe we should insert some cartoons containing The prophet Mahamed, and the baby Jesus.

Yeah.. that'd do it. then we could have rioting and death and violence in God's name! Yeah! For love!!

[NukleoN]

Ideally, all legal advantages of marriage would be transferred to "civil unions" or whatever name you want to give it. Civil unions wouldn't discriminate between hetero and homo. Straight and gay people would both be viewed the same in the eyes of the law. The law would then cease to recognize marriages entirely -- it's something for different religions to deal with, not the government.

I agree, Som, but it's a slightly different argument. With respect to church state separation though, you're correct...the government has no business sticking its nose in the relationships of consenting adults...but since it *does* have its nose in it, we ought to be consistent. One wrong doesn't excuse another. Frankly, there aren't many people lobbying to abolish the legal recognition of marriage and I have a feeling this isn't happening soon. In the interim the law should treat legally-recognized couples equally and allow unmarried straight couples to enter into domestic partnerships.

The fair treatment of legally recognizing gay marriage doesn't mean a church would be forced to marry them....they could just get a civil union like any other couple who object to being married in a church for whatever reason.

I agree that marriage has roots as a religious institution. Sex was not allowed outside of marriage, women were mere property without the same rights as men and remember the old vows? Women were to honor and OBEY the man. Why are women so content to give up their last names as well? Doesn't their identity mean anything to them? I guess it's tradition...but it's annoying how the names of the female get swallowed up in the identity of the male.

[Dragonhawk]

Love?

:confused:

[NukleoN]

Love?

Actually...

[Dom]

good movie :D

[sugart!ts]

never seen it.. is it a total chick flick

[LowSpdWobble]

U guys just went ADD on this thread. lol

Back to the topic....

My parents are divorced and while reading this thread (it's a damn long thread, but i've read every word) i've realized that that event might have had an effect on my views of marriage.

Nuke, your "ideology" has shined some light on me...and it makes sense to me. It's almost too simple. I'm hoping that when i forward this thread to my gf, she'll see things in a new light.


i'm lookin forward to following this thread...mighty interesting!

[NukleoN]

Nuke, your "ideology" has shined some light on me...and it makes sense to me. It's almost too simple. I'm hoping that when i forward this thread to my gf, she'll see things in a new light.

Howdy Low Spd...

Yep, it is remarkably simple. You see, if you ask for a basic request, that is, 'I don't want to get married', you will be faced with an onslaught of social pressure to get married. Why does this pressure exist?

You have the right not to be married, and as a man in CA, it's one of the best financial decisions you can make. If you're looking to avoid legal drama (as opposed to harmless social drama), you're also better off not being married in the event of a messy divorce.

Practical benefits to staying unmarried aside, there is absolutely nothing lacking from an unmarried relationship from an emotional perspective. If your girlfriend truly loves you for you and you love her, there is no reason you shouldn't pursue your lives together with full force. Have all the parties you want, but save the huge expense of a wedding and put it toward a house or some other investment...or pay off debts.

If your girlfriend believes you to be an easy replacement she may trot out the old, 'marry me or I am leaving you' line. This kind of manipulation should *definitely* be a warning sign, and *never* marry a woman who says this. Next thing you know, she will be saying things like, 'sell the bike or I am leaving' or something along those lines.

People recommend living together as a 'test' for marriage, but the divorce rate is an indicator that people are just wrong at least half of the time about someone they were completely 'sure' about. The fact is, you will never 'know' a person because what you know today could be based on false information (lies or lack of knowledge) or she could simply decide she likes your best friend, or women, or she might decide to join a convent...who knows. I don't plan to try and control my girlfriend, but I won't fool myself into thinking I can plan the future based on what I think she will or won't do...she's a completely different person who may change her mind for whatever reason....and as I've said, I could change my mind. I prefer not to set a legal beartrap for myself as punishment for something which is likely, if undesired at present...changing my mind.

Marriage by itself can also affect people's emotional state...my last girlfriend's ex-husband starting beating her pretty much the first day they were married. He thought he owned her because of the marriage...so marriage always affects how people act, but in varying degrees. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I do believe marriage changes people, and often not in a good way. Why on Earth would giving away legal power to a sexual partner or the state improve a situation?

If you refrain from marriage, you won't have to worry about divorce lawyers who make a living making some married person miserable....you won't have to explain to some judge why you want to get away from a person, you can avoid alimony, which by the way if you're married to a woman over 10 years you pay for LIFE (I'll fact check that but I'm pretty sure of it).

Keep it simple...live together..have fun, enjoy life, do as you say you will do...if you plan to be monogamous..be true to your word...and if it works, great! If not...be glad you weren't married. :D