PDA

View Full Version : Annette: 2, Cops: 0


snootycat
Wed 1/24/07, 6:06PM
So today, I went in to defend myself against a ticket for violating §21801 (a), “darting out” to take a left hand turn at a green light. After oral arguments and questioning, the case was dismissed. So I’m posting my experience in case any of you get ticketed for the same thing.

CA Vehicle Code §21801 refers to how to make a legal left hand turn. It states:

“The driver of a vehicle intending to turn to the left...shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching from the opposite direction which are close enough to constitute a hazard at any time during the turning movement, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way...until the left turn...can be made w/reasonable safety.” (Emphasis mine.)

The key word here, folks, is “approaching.” The ticketing officer told me I violated this statute even though none of the vehicles facing me had moved. (I was facing North, turning West...oncoming traffic was facing South.) So the Southbound traffic had not moved at all when I finished the turn. The officer was nice enough (I’m not being sarcastic, I really appreciated the Officer’s professionalism in this matter...) to fax me a case he was relying on People v. Marsh, 8 Cal.App.4th Supp.1 (1992). This case basically said I was guilty because the court read into the statute a new twist...the “dart out” rule. Meaning, you cannot “dart out” into traffic on a green even if you can make the turn safely. Here’s a quote from that case:
“No one can seriously argue allocation of right-of-way should be reduced to a contest of reaction times. Putting people into 4,000 pound, combustion-powered, gasoline-laden machines; stressing them out in a daily commute; and then telling them right-of-way is simply a matter of whether they are quick enough to ‘get off the line’ before the other drivers seems like such a patently bad idea that it would insulting to ascribe it to the Legislature. And we will not.”

Yawn. Here’s the kicker...This interpretation of §21801 is only valid in [b]Orange County courts, as it was made by an Orange County Appellate Court. Here in Los Angeles courts, the existing and mandatory precedent is that a left turn is not illegal unless: 1) opposing cars are already in the intersection or 2) opposing cars are so close to the left-turner that is constitutes an “immediate hazard.” This is an old, and beloved case called People v. Bull, 144 Cal.App.2d Supp. 860 (1956). This decision was made by a Los Angeles County Appellate Department, Superior Court. The reason the key word is “approaching” is because it implies an action. “Approaching” is an action verb. “It would be a contradiction in terms to say that a standing car was approaching. But the word is used in the statute and may not be discarded.” Bull at 862.

Don’t get me wrong. You can STILL be validly ticketed for turning left directly after your light turns green if you are 1) speeding, 2) creating a hazard, or 3) the oncoming traffic has to stop or slow in order to allow you to clear the intersection.

But this is how you get out of it. You are allowed to ask the officer questions. Ask him/her the following questions:
1. Was I speeding?
2. Was I violating the basic speed law?
3. Were any of the opposing cars in the intersection when I made the turn?
4. Were any of the opposing cars in the intersection before I completed my turn?
5. The light was green when I took the left, correct?

If the officer answers:
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No
6. Yes

You’re home free!

Here’s my advice though. Don’t take a left immediately when your light turns green. Being technically right wasn’t worth 6 months of my time and going down to the Pasadena court three times and dealing with the moronic clerks there. Plus I had to hold my tongue while the “judge” lectured me about how exposed I am as a motorcyclist and how dangerous it “could have been” etc etc etc. I don’t like holding my tongue. But oh how I love the sweet, sweet smell of dismissal of yet another citation. If dismissals smelled, they would smell like bacon covered roses. MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Ikazuchi
Wed 1/24/07, 6:14PM
Originally posted by snootycat
If dismissals smelled, they would smell like bacon covered roses. MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You're a strange one...

..but you have good advice :D

Dragonhawk
Wed 1/24/07, 6:15PM
Very interesting.

I was always told it was illegal to make an immediate left when the light turns green if there is oncoming traffic.

Clearly, the cop believed the same thing.

And you actually beat it? Very cool.

But, as you said yourself, don't do that anymore! It's too risky.

snootycat
Wed 1/24/07, 6:22PM
Originally posted by Dragonhawk


I was always told it was illegal to make an immediate left when the light turns green if there is oncoming traffic.

Clearly, the cop believed the same thing.


Yeah, it's only outright illegal in Orange County. Trust me, I'm not going to do it again :)

morbidelli17
Wed 1/24/07, 6:32PM
THANK YOU!!!!!

I have a ticket for exactly this thing that I am taking to Pasadena Traffic Court.

Difference is, I did it as the light turned green crossing a one-way street; in other words, when I turned left, I was about a foot into the intersection, and oncoming traffic had to come across several lanes before they got to where I was - obviously, when they got there, I was LONG gone. But that little bit of reality didn't stop the officer from writing the ticket ...

Thanks again.

M

snootycat
Wed 1/24/07, 7:00PM
Originally posted by morbidelli17


I have a ticket for exactly this thing that I am taking to Pasadena Traffic Court.

M

I'm glad this helped!!! There's more than 22,000 vehicle code statutes to ticket someone for. If we're going to be ticketed, we should be ticketed for violating one of those 22,000 rather than ticketed for some random imaginary, made-up law!!!!:D

Buellba Fett
Wed 1/24/07, 7:30PM
Excellent thread Snootycat - Thx! :cool:

Darth Lefty
Wed 1/24/07, 7:34PM
Congrats on cutting off traffic and getting away with it.

Remember the First Rule of Autoduelling: "Drive Offensively!"

bloodclot
Wed 1/24/07, 8:34PM
i dont think she cut anyone off. an sv has plenty of get-up-and-go to clear the intersection.

its not like she held anyone up, or put anyone in danger... :confused:

I say
Wed 1/24/07, 8:41PM
mmmm...bacon

snootycat
Wed 1/24/07, 9:50PM
Originally posted by Darth Lefty
Congrats on cutting off traffic and getting away with it.

Remember the First Rule of Autoduelling: "Drive Offensively!"

There's one in every bunch. Hey dude...don't you think if I did something dangerous that the court would have upheld the ticket? Or do you think the court was just being especially kind today? Puh-lease:rolleyes:

Burke
Wed 1/24/07, 9:56PM
Shes not on an SV, and Annette... Stop giving free legal advice here... You will be able to make a fortune on us once you pass the BAR... Duh!

BTW... When you gonna come on a ride with us? Feb. 11 sounds good to me.

snootycat
Wed 1/24/07, 10:04PM
I keep telling Matt that when I pass the bar, I'm going to go down every month to Pasadena Traffic Court and yell out "I'm an attorney...anyone think they're not guilty?" And then help whoever wants it for free.

People like Darth don't understand that here in America, you're innocent until proven guilty, and a ticket doesn't prove guilt.

Thudds
Thu 1/25/07, 7:26AM
Darth has a point that whether it was legal or not it was a dumb move. It is the kind of thing that pisses people off and give the motorcycling community a bad name.

That said congrats on sticking it to the Man. I've had my share of bone head tickets.

Jrod
Thu 1/25/07, 8:05AM
i do that move in my truck and my bike all the time. People are slow, i take advantage of it.

To everybody: Get off your gaddamn cell phone

SteveT
Thu 1/25/07, 10:36AM
Originally posted by Jrod
People are slow, i take advantage of it.

To everybody: Get off your gaddamn cell phone

+1

smokescreen
Thu 1/25/07, 11:42AM
Mmmmmm.... Bacon covered roses....

Guzzigirl2000
Thu 1/25/07, 2:24PM
glad it worked out and thanks for posting

rbuzaleski
Thu 1/25/07, 4:52PM
Originally posted by Jrod
[People are slow, i take advantage of it.

But they also expect traffic to move a certain way, and one of their expectations is that traffic won't do this "dart out" thing. Should they look first? Hell yes. But many don't, and I'm sure the OP knows this, so I agree: Dumb move.

Even if it didn't risk her, it risked someone overreacting and slamming on the brakes or making some other maneuver that would cause an accident. If that happened, I'd be all in favor of ticketing the OP for fault in the accident.

Public roads involve sharing and certain assumptions. If you don't heed those assumptions you break the whole thing, like in that commercial where everybody is buying lunch with a debit card and then the one guy uses cash. His only conseqence is that people stare at him and get their lunches later; in traffic, it may be that people die.

ADRATH
Thu 1/25/07, 5:04PM
How would it force people to brake if she was in and out of the intersection before anyone moved hence why she was able to beat the ticket. No cars were 'approaching' her so explain how she caused someone to break or do anything different.

Buellba Fett
Thu 1/25/07, 7:02PM
In chess, en passant is a rarely used move, but legal nonetheless - even if a player is not expecting it. With regard to the merits of the "quick turn", it appears the court endorses the move.

Just an observation... :|

zmann
Thu 1/25/07, 9:08PM
In darts, "le darting out" is a frequently used move and considered the only way to get the dart to the dart board. The courts allow darting but not while drinking liquor in a fully nude strip club next to a school gymnasium while speeding and talking on a mobile phone. Text messages are OK though.
Just FYI.

Annette- you forgot to post question 6 for the officer:

"Do you enjoy combing each other's moustaches?"

Cyanide41
Fri 1/26/07, 10:37AM
While I agree that the "darting" was not the safest or most prudent manuever, I am glad to see you stick it to the man!

cyclox
Fri 1/26/07, 10:56AM
Good going on exploring all the nuances in the law... what are you a lawyer or something ;)

Of course, I wouldn't pull this sort of thing here in NYC - in LA, it seems that people sneak through the end of the light cycle (some call this running red lights...). In NY, there's seems to be less running of red lights and more jumping the green light. Trying to "dart" across an intersection is just asking to get clobbered by a taxi in a hurry.

Different driving cultures demand adjustments, I guess.

Know Talent
Fri 1/26/07, 2:11PM
Yeah, I used to brag back in my roulette playing days

<bang....thud> :D

NukleoN
Sun 2/11/07, 4:08AM
Grats Annette!

On an unprotected green, the whole idea is to allow left-turners the discretion to make a left turn safely, and without slowing down approaching cars. That's why there are contingencies as to whether oncoming cars are inside the intersection or being slowed by the left turner who has failed to yield right of way.

We all know cops generally don't expect citizens to fight their tickets. Some will tend to write tickets they're not sure about....or even tickets they know are complete B.S. If this weren't the case, people like Annette or myself wouldn't be beating so many tickets with a judge and cop trying to make it stick...all on the taxpayer's dime. Gee, what a freakin' waste of time and money, eh?

My pending case is regarding a cop who just wrote myself and a rider friend a ticket for 'speeding'. He claims to have measured our speeds at the same time despite the fact that we had the sun to our backs, while he was coming up a slight rise, on a straightaway where we had clear visibility and saw him very early on (thus slowing), where we have very slim front profiles and were going different speeds and while he felt confident enough to u-turn in front of us in order to affect the citation (he was coming the other way initially).

Yep, he's gonna lose his case, and he doesn't even know it yet, but he still wrote us both tickets. He has no idea we're fighting this, nor did I let on. When I asked him how he got us both for allegedly speeding at the same time he remarked, 'You were both going the same speed'. Busted. He's basically admitting with his statement that he's pulling it out of his ass...or maybe his RADAR or LIDAR gun has split beams which can pick up two motorcycle front profiles simultaneously...after the fact that we spotted him early, were slowing down at different rates and would be awfully hard to measure that quickly with LIDAR or RADAR...there's no way he can know who was going what speed. If we were speeding, why would he trust that we had control enough of our vehicles to make a u-turn right in front of us?

Anyway....this is gonna make my record 6 and 0 by the end of the month...100% success rate fighting tickets....maybe if enough people fought their tickets, cops would think harder about writing tickets...after all...there are far more important things to worry about...even with traffic. Can't totally blame the cops tho..much of the problem has to do with the laws regarding speed limits.....especially on the freeway (giant speed trap which ignores the 85th percentile speed).

Tickets are not evidence of guilt..it's basically a written statement by a fallible witness with a bias against you, an unwritten quota (yes they do exist), pressure from bosses and citizens and a cowed populace who generally pays their tickets without question....the wolf is guarding the henhouse here. I think if more people fought tickets we'd get a more realistic appraisal of traffic laws...especially those regarding speed limits (especially on the freeway). The freeway speed limits right now are basically a speed trap, since the posted limit completely ignores conditions or the 85th percentile.

Anyhoo....Annette..sorry to jack this thread slightly....but good on ya! Your determination and research paid off..woot! :)

I know one thing...I didn't fight any tickets until one thing happened...this female cop at a speed trap (I proved it was later on) smirked, yes, SMIRKED at me...like I was a trapped deer and she was the smug hunter....looking over her kill. Well, that beyotch doesn't realize what a monster she created...coz it was right then and there I decided I would fight every ticket I got from then on......and yes, I do take delight in seeing others beat their tickets tooo......we've all been robbed for too long I think...since so many BS tickets are mixed in with the 'valid' ones.

bear308
Sun 2/11/07, 9:22AM
well you should fight your B.S. ones and pay the valids. MAN UP, stop breaking the rules or do something and try to get them changed

Mike1024
Sun 2/11/07, 11:34AM
fuck the police. speed and throw stuff at bad drivers.