Who are you voting for? [Archive]

SVelocity

Tue 9/30/03, 2:36PM

Why in god's green earth would anyone vote for Arnold.

First of all the recall is just a Republican power play to remove a Democratic governor that they don't like.

This recall is not about removing someone who is corrupt, negligent, or incapable of performing his duties. No, this is purely a politically motivated coup d'etat based on a whimsical self-serving platform. Nothing more...

Ok, the state of Cali is in financial straits. No doubt, but so is every other state... Davis is not directly responsible for what has happened. Bush has slashed federal spending to every state and has directed those monies towards the military.

Furthermore, Davis' hands are tied regarding the budget. He must abide by a plethora of restrictions plus he is required to spend (or allocate) specific amounts of money designated by the referendums process. Additionally, anytime he wants to pass something credible it has to go through the circus they call the California Congress.

If you don't like the guy vote him out in the next election, that's why we have them.

Seriously, take a hard look at the candidates... is the grass really greener on the other side?

Vote no to the recall.

Chris

Golden_Eternity

Tue 9/30/03, 3:23PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
First of all the recall is just a Republican power play to remove a Democratic governor that they don't like.

You do realize that only 30% of registered voters in California are Republican, right? And that there's no way in hell we could do anything on our own...? You might have noticed this based on the fact that EVERY major office in the state is held by Democrats, as well as majority of state senate positions.

California is an example of what happens when the Dems are in charge... We spend 50% more than we take in until we end up in the hole by 38billion.

Davis says we don't have a deficit anymore, but that's 'cause we borrowed the money to pay it off, in violation of the state constitution, btw... (Some of the loans have already been kicked, and I'm sure the rest will too)... If I transfer my balance from one credit card to another, that doesn't get rid of my debt. It doesn't get rid of the state's debt either.

The day the recall got certified, I heard about Davis signing a bill for a program to fund councelling to people who were stressed out by the budget deficit...

Anyone who believes that this is "a republican power play" is completely deluded by the liberal media. You actually think that Davis isn't corrupt or incompetent, but Bush is?!

So, I'm voting for Arnold.

(Oh, and I'll be voting for Bush in '04)

Kurt'sSV

Tue 9/30/03, 3:38PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
You do realize that only 30% of registered voters in California are Republican, right? And that there's no way in hell we could do anything on our own...?

Right, which is why a republican can't get elected into office during a real governor's election. So instead some yo-yo who isn't even a candidate anymore forces a recall election where it only takes a fraction of the people to vote in a new governor, and the only people who really care about this are conservatives like yourself and bwarbiany, i.e. people who will vote out the Democratic governor.

If Davis really was such a horrible governor, then would one of you conservatives who give a shit about politics explain why he was reelected in the real governors race?

Golden_Eternity

Tue 9/30/03, 3:43PM

Originally posted by Kurt'sSV
Right, which is why a republican can't get elected into office during a real governor's election. So instead some yo-yo who isn't even a candidate anymore forces a recall election where it only takes a fraction of the people to vote in a new governor

Actually, it'll take more than 50% of the people to get davis out of office, which is higher than the % of voters that put him in.

Then, it'll take a simple majority of voters to elect the new governor, just like in every other election. Just like when Davis was elected.

The recall is made out to be a way to bypass the will of the people, but its much harder to recall someone than to win in a regular election.

Originally posted by Kurt'sSV
If Davis really was such a horrible governor, then would one of you conservatives who give a shit about politics explain why he was reelected in the real governors race?

Because he concealed the deficit until after the elections. Oh, and he refused to debate his competition. And, frankly, 'cause Bill Simon was a weak candidate.

Kurt'sSV

Tue 9/30/03, 4:09PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
Actually, it'll take more than 50% of the people to get davis out of office, which is higher than the % of voters that put him in.

Then, it'll take a simple majority of voters to elect the new governor, just like in every other election. Just like when Davis was elected.

The recall is made out to be a way to bypass the will of the people, but its much harder to recall someone than to win in a regular election.

Because he concealed the deficit until after the elections. Oh, and he refused to debate his competition. And, frankly, 'cause Bill Simon was a weak candidate.

Okey-dokey. Well as long as this recall benefits CA and more specifically, me, then . . . . . . whatever.

stough

Tue 9/30/03, 4:11PM

Vote no on the recall.

Yes on Arianna (http://www.ariannaforgov.com)!

I agree almost entirely with SVelocity. People signed those petitions because they thought it's be a hoot and because the state is in financial trouble. Sure Davis downplayed that trouble during the election, but I doubt that anyone else would be doing a better job of dealing with it than he is now. Oh and since the Reps put up a poor candidate, they deserve a second chance. :confused: WTF?

No worries though... If the recall passes, Bustamante will be right back into the office. McClintock will split the Republican vote and hand it to Bustamante. BTW, the only reason that Arny or McClintock will get more votes than Bustamante is that the Republicans are far more mobilized than the Dems. They can smell a coup, and as our other poll shows, no one really loves davis.

What I really worry about is getting that war loving weenie out of the Whitehouse before everyone on the planet hates us and the class split in the US gets so bad that he needs the Nat Guard to keep down the riots. *feeding the flames* :D

Later,
Tim.

slowpoke

Tue 9/30/03, 4:38PM

My ballot is in the mail.

I only wish that each candidate had another voting option next to their name - "Prevent this person from running for public office ever again" - and that we could vote to ban more than one candidate.

I would rather that the money that the state has to spend to hold the election would go towards repaving our favorite mountain roads and running the sweepers every morning before daybreak.

I wonder if the campain media ads are taxed? That would balance the budget in a hurry.:D

SVelocity

Wed 10/1/03, 11:27AM

Anyone who believes that this is "a republican power play" is completely deluded by the liberal media.

HA! Liberal Media?? Ok Golden_Eternity, I hear this quite often. Please enlighten us with a list of who is "liberal" out there. And you can't say PBS because they might be the only objective source of news left.

Chris

Kurt'sSV

Wed 10/1/03, 11:38AM

Originally posted by SVelocity
HA! Liberal Media?? Ok Golden_Eternity, I hear this quite often. Please enlighten us with a list of who is "liberal" out there.

Chris

Fox News! . . . . .no wait, Bill O'Reilly is the devil . . . .

license2ill

Wed 10/1/03, 2:05PM

Grey Davis is the Ryan Leaf of politics.

He needs to take his signing bonus and move on. And California needs to find another quarterback sooner than the next draft.

Hate to drop the sports angle on ya, but we can't essentially give these guys a contract and say you're free to go. They have to be accountable-- right now, and the entire time they are employed by you and me.

This transcends bullshit party lines and moves. The people shouldnt be stuck because we(you) made a poor decision in the first place and not be able to change sooner than planned or hoped for.

I think this will force more people to vote in the future in all elections. Politicians will have to have more support than ever before. The system will work much better in the end, due to this type of action.

Kurt'sSV

Wed 10/1/03, 2:38PM

Originally posted by license2ill
Grey Davis is the Ryan Leaf of politics.

He needs to take his signing bonus and move on. And California needs to find another quarterback sooner than the next draft.

Hate to drop the sports angle on ya, but we can't essentially give these guys a contract and say you're free to go. They have to be accountable-- right now, and the entire time they are employed by you and me.

This transcends bullshit party lines and moves. The people shouldnt be stuck because we(you) made a poor decision in the first place and not be able to change sooner than planned or hoped for.

I think this will force more people to vote in the future in all elections. Politicians will have to have more support than ever before. The system will work much better in the end, due to this type of action.

That's a good, positive way to look at this recall stuff. Like in a private corporation, if you're doing a crappy job they can you even if you were doing an adequate job last year. We shouldn't have to wait until the standard election time to get rid of a crappy elected official (though I'm still not totally convinced that all CA's crap is Davis'es fault), this way those greedy, old white guys will need to always be doing a good job to keep their position.

Golden_Eternity

Wed 10/1/03, 2:40PM

Originally posted by Kurt'sSV
Fox News! . . . . .no wait, Bill O'Reilly is the devil . . . .

There are times when that guy just bugs the piss out of me... I've sent him a couple messages explaining why he was wrong, but I don't know if they made it on air.

'Course the main one was a response to an essay he published, so I wouldn't expect him to quote me on his show... Was about the dangers of the internet and I wrote to tell him that his proposals were either already in place or wouldn't work...

Golden_Eternity

Wed 10/1/03, 2:53PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
HA! Liberal Media?? Ok Golden_Eternity, I hear this quite often. Please enlighten us with a list of who is "liberal" out there. And you can't say PBS because they might be the only objective source of news left.

Chris

Here's a test... did your favorite news outlet tell you about the study out of berkeley that was the basis for the ACLU's suit to stop the recall? The one that claimed that minority voters weren't competent to work with 1890's technology? Did your favorite news outlet discuss another study that showed touch screen voting machines have an error rate 1% higher than punch cards (its older voters who have the most trouble, and they don't deal well with adapting to new technology)?

If they did tell you about it, did they tell you that the county with the most reported errors was not predominantly populated by minorities (which some had suggested as an explanation for the greater number of errors)? Or that the county with the second highest error rate was predominantly white and didn't even use punch cards?

This was hugely important event, and I had to explain what was going on to a lot of my friends, because their news sources didn't print one word about it...

Did your favorite news media press on the idea that there's no link between 9/11 and Iraq, but then fail to mention that Saddam was giving money and a home to one of the 93 WTC bombers, a member of Al Qaida?

Did your news source scream all day about the white house uncovering the identity of an undercover CIA operative and ignore the fact that the reporter who started it all has said that he wasn't called by the white house and that by all accounts she isn't an agent, she's just an analyst?

Has your favorite news agency ranted about how poorly things are going in Iraq, but failed to mention that all the hospitals and universities are open again, and that middle schools are being converted from weapons caches back into schools? Did you know that for a lot of kids in Iraq, today was their first day of school? Did you know that deaths of US troops has been on the decline since July (http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/004670.html#004670)?

If you need some examples, take a look at the LA Times, the NY Times (Which gets it right sometimes, but its editorial position is leftist and can influence its reporting), NPR and most network news. I wouldn't call Reuters a liberal news service, since they bash all Americans equally.

I get a lot of my news (not all) from right-leaning or flat out conservative sources, but at least I recognize that fact and I know to read beyond the bias.

bwarbiany

Thu 10/2/03, 10:34AM

Interesting the way this poll is turning out... Right now (tabulating 47 votes so far), if you take out the non-voters from CA and outside of CA, it looks like 24/39 people are going for Ahhnold... 61%... Much different than the statewide polls I've seen.

I'm wondering why...

I guess people, after looking at other polls, are probably leaning more towards Arnold than McClintock, showing that Arnold is pulling roughly the 40% other polls show him at, plus McClintock's previous 18%... And from my experience with many motorcyclists, they seem to be a slightly less liberal bunch than the general population (my judgement, at least), so that might explain Cruz Bustamante's lower numbers...

Any thoughts?

license2ill

Thu 10/2/03, 11:27AM

It appears to me at least that motorcyclists would prefer a more liberitarian state.

Karter18

Thu 10/2/03, 1:38PM

Karter18

Thu 10/2/03, 1:59PM

Has your favorite news agency ranted about how poorly things are going in Iraq, but failed to mention that all the hospitals and universities are open again, and that middle schools are being converted from weapons caches back into schools? Did you know that for a lot of kids in Iraq, today was their first day of school? Did you know that deaths of US troops has been on the decline since

Here is a view of Iraq from someone who is actually there. I guess most of the news reporters missed some of these points. This is from early September.

Letter to the Legion
>
> Dear Post 45,
>
> I caught wind of and read the recent news articles being circulated back there in the states. I figured I could clarify some things for you.
>
> As usual the news media has blown some things way out of proportion. The countryside is getting more safe by the day despite all the attacks you are hearing about. Imagine every shooting incident or robbery committed in LA or Portland being blown wayout of proportion. This is a country where most of the
Saddam Hussein thugs are being chased around like scared rabbits by Coalition forces. It is literally open season on them! We hunt them down like animals.

There were about a million soldiers in the Iraqi army at the beginning of hostilities and most of them took off before we attacked.

There are some that were very loyal to Saddam that are trying to sneak around and take pot shots at us. We are cleaning them up pretty fast.

There are also thugs from other countries running around, like Iran and Syria. Well, the Iraqis hate these thugs as much as we do. So the Iraqi people are hunting them down too! I can honestly say 98% of the population of Iraq love us and they do not want us to leave...ever! They say as long as we are here
they feel safe.

What is going on with the countries infrastructure? Everything is going well!

The railroad is running again! The railroad has not run since 1991. In the city of Hilllah, the power stays on 24 hours a day and it has more power than prior to the war. Some Iraqis are worried about getting too much food from the Coalition because they don't have enough room in their homes to store it. The
markets are open. The Seabees have rebuilt all of the schools and put in furniture and chalkboards. The kids used to sit on the floor! Now they have nice desks to sit at.

Commerce is running. New money is being printed. The Iraqi Dinar has stabilized and is now increasing in value. Most of the Iraqi men want to buy Chevy pickups (I told them a Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel is better Ha Ha). They pretty much want
any vehicle made by General Motors. The highways and bridges are being repaired. In the Universities, the girls have tossed their deshakas (long black dresses with head and face coverings) and are now wearing western style clothes and even some are wearing short sleeves. The favorite drink is Pepsi, followed by
Coke. They want us to bring them any and everything American. Any item made in America or that is from America is worth money over here.

The newspapers and television paint a picture of doom and gloom and that we are having major problems over here. That is just not the case. The Iraqis have a saying about the situation over here "Every day is better than the day before". Life is flowing back into this country and it is fun to watch and I am so
glad I got to watch it happen. Some days watching the Iraqi people is like watching the faces of little kids on Christmas Day!
Many of them are walking around in a daze wondering what to do with their freedom.

They are starting businesses everywhere. They want to build shopping malls and factories, they want McDonalds and Jack in the Box and Pizza Hut. Of course anything American Fast Food, because of the stories the troops are telling them. We give them our old newspapers and magazines that you have been
sending us and they are absolutely flabbergasted when they read them! They want us to keep bringing them. They read every single page even the advertisements over and over! This would be a good time for media to get their magazines going over here because the Iraqis just love them.

So in short you see I will give you the straight scoop and keep you informed of what is up over here. I will sign off for now and send this along.

Thanks again to all of you for your support. My mailing address has changed. The older one is no longer working. I will tell you the new one as soon as we get it.

Senior Chief Art Messer
22 Naval Construction Regiment (Forward)
Task Force Charlie
U. S. Navy Seabees
>
> "With Compassion For Others, We Build, We Fight, For Peace With Freedom"
>

Loyolan

Thu 10/2/03, 2:00PM

Gray Davis is derelict of his duties as governor and has breached his fiduciary responsibilities to the poeple of the State of California.

Not every state is in financial trouble.

Almost all of Gray's misgivings have to do with his mismanagement of the state's economy.

An economic liberal should not run the "world's 5th largest economy." Or should they, they will surely run it into the ground.

Liberals make only emotional appeals to an irrational cheap vote base of young, poor, minorities, and women. Oh yeah, and queers. All of the aforementioned flock to this state like the Swallows of Capistrano.

-Daniel E. Adams
(Young, minority Republican)

Kurt'sSV

Thu 10/2/03, 2:15PM

. . . .and conservatives are selfish and closed minded, but if someone can get gas prices to go down, I don't care what party they're from (does any candidate have that in their platform? I know Arnold's platform has something to do with putting it to the Indians 'cause the government hasn't fucked them royally in almost 100 years so they're due).

Daniel, you sound just like Rush. Good for you!

Golden_Eternity

Thu 10/2/03, 3:26PM

Originally posted by Loyolan
Not every state is in financial trouble.

That's a great point and I was hoping someone else would make it... If you want to blame the economic problems in California on Bush, then you need to show that all states are having these kinds of problems. The only other state that is having as bad a time as California is New York, and I'd say that they have a pretty good reason.

Originally posted by Kurt'sSV
. . . .and conservatives are selfish and closed minded, but if someone can get gas prices to go down, I don't care what party they're from (does any candidate have that in their platform? I know Arnold's platform has something to do with putting it to the Indians 'cause the government hasn't fucked them royally in almost 100 years so they're due).

I haven't heard anyone talking about gas prices. I do know that someone in washington was calling for a probe into price gouging or something like that...

I know that Arnold opposes drilling off our coast, which I think is a dumb position... The oil rigs actually create new habitats for sea life, and its not like oil doesn't already seep out of the ground and find its way onto our beaches naturally...

I might be more inclined to oppose calling for taxing indian gaming if they weren't being run by italian guys out of New Jersey, and if tribal leaders who opposed the new ownership weren't finding themselves involved in unfortunate accidents.

Golden_Eternity

Thu 10/2/03, 4:53PM

Originally posted by Karter18
Here is a view of Iraq from someone who is actually there. I guess most of the news reporters missed some of these points. This is from early September.

Thanks Karter.

For more letters from the front, check out this site (which was linked from the wall street journal yesterday):

http://frontlinevoices.org/

Karter18

Thu 10/2/03, 5:41PM

That's a cool site. I will have to check out some more of those letters when I am at work tomorrow:D

SVelocity

Thu 10/2/03, 5:51PM

Here is a view of Iraq from someone who is actually there. I guess most of the news reporters missed some of these points. This is from early September.

Ok, Karter18...that was a nice letter...very warm and fuzzy. I Suppose the Navy censor had to let that one through...I wish I knew what a Senior Chief Art Messer is. hmmm?

Seriously, I am not against the military and I am not against getting rid of Saddam. I just don't like my president to lie to me/us. Throughout all the BS that has been flung around, one thing has become quite apparent. There are no WMD's of biological, chemical or nuclear origin. Therefore, there is no way Iraq could launch an attack in 45 minutes and our security was never threatened. This was the basis for going to war and this was what we believed to be true when we ok'd Bush to send our young men and women to die for this cause.

If Bush said: "I want to stomp this measly SOB into the ground so I can get at his oil and so we can have some cheaper gas. Plus, we might be helping some of the natives while we do it." Truthfully, I would have been alright with it. It's not the first time a country went to war for natural resources. So lets be frank about the whole thing...

An economic liberal should not run the "world's 5th largest economy." Or should they, they will surely run it into the ground.

Look don't get me wrong... I AM NOT A DAVIS SUPPORTER nor am I a registered Democrat. I just don't like how the recall is going down. The GOP couldn't win with Bill Simon so now they try to stage a coup d'etat for their own personal interests. All the while wasting the taxpayers money. The real shit of it is...we are going to get stuck with an actor as a governor who has ZERO experience running the "5th largest economy". Ok, so you say he's got great advisor's. I wasn't around for the Wilson years but I hear he wasn't so great either.

Not every state is in financial trouble.

Loyolan - You are right not every state is in trouble but most are. Illinois is in major trouble and its had a Republican governor for the past 16 years.

Vermont is not in trouble and by most accounts Howard Dean has done an excellent job running one of the smallest state economies. Wouldn't you say it's more difficult to generate money and balance a budget of a state that doesn't have the influx of capital like California? Bigger state bigger problems more financial complexities. Agreed, but bigger tax base especially with the immigrant factor (who still pay state taxes without receiving the benefits) generates far more revenue than a small agrarian state.

Liberals make only emotional appeals to an irrational cheap vote base of young, poor, minorities, and women. Oh yeah, and queers. All of the aforementioned flock to this state like the Swallows of Capistrano.

Loyolan - Based on your signature we know you fall into at least two of these six categories: young and a minority. Now, if we look at your avatar I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't fall into at least one more.

Let me tell you something...I am not irrational, I am young (28), I am not poor, I am not a minority, I am not a woman, and I am not queer, but I am a LIBERAL! The reason I am liberal is based on one category you left out.

I am educated.

Peace,

Chris

Golden_Eternity

Thu 10/2/03, 8:46PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
I wish I knew what a Senior Chief Art Messer is. hmmm?

That would be a Senior Chief by the name of Art Messer.

Originally posted by SVelocity
There are no WMD's of biological, chemical or nuclear origin.

Yeah, that's why the Kuwaiti's arrested some guys for smuggling $60mil worth of chem/bio out of Iraq on its way toward "an unnamed european country" yesterday.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_399454,00050004.htm

And that's why they found mustard and cyanide in the Euphrates.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-04-iraq-white-vials_x.htm

Personally, I'm concerned that Bush lied about the fact that Saddam existed... http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/000881.html

Originally posted by SVelocity
This was the basis for going to war and this was what we believed to be true when we ok'd Bush to send our young men and women to die for this cause.

That's not why I wanted to go to war... I wanted to go because of the people being raped, tortured, dropped feet first into plastic shredders, chained to posts and having their tongues cut out and left to bleed to death...

http://www.bhodisoft.com/journal/index.php?id=790

Originally posted by SVelocity
Therefore, there is no way Iraq could launch an attack in 45 minutes and our security was never threatened.

Bush said it wasn't an imminent threat. In recent weeks however, people have been going back and demanding where the "imminent threat" was... Its bull, go back and read the original quote.

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html

Originally posted by SVelocity
If Bush said: "I want to stomp this measly SOB into the ground so I can get at his oil and so we can have some cheaper gas. Plus, we might be helping some of the natives while we do it." Truthfully, I would have been alright with it. It's not the first time a country went to war for natural resources. So lets be frank about the whole thing...

Riiight, blood for oil. How's that working out for you? Cause I'm sure not paying less at the pump. I suppose we went into Afganhistan for oil too? Why is it only all right to help out an oppressed people if they don't have oil fields?

Hell, we could have gotten a better deal for oil out of Iraq while it was still under sanctions... The French were. If that's what we were about, then why didn't we get in on that action?

SVelocity

Thu 10/2/03, 10:43PM

First of all let me say, my bad on the Art Messer thing. Total oversight. Thanks for correcting me Golden_E...

Secondly, Golden_E I am still sifting through your ultra-conservative publications which are clearly hell bent on uplifting the president's cause. Until I finish, let me respond to another part of your post.

Riiight, blood for oil. How's that working out for you? Cause I'm sure not paying less at the pump. I suppose we went into Afganhistan for oil too? Why is it only all right to help out an oppressed people if they don't have oil fields?

OK...I guess I didn't make it clear enough...I do not support going to war! I do not support sending our troops to die for an unfounded cause! I apologize if my avatar and/or my ending quote misled you as to my feelings. I figured you could spot a little sarcasm. Guess not...

The point was...we attacked Iraq based under one assumption but we are really there for an entirely different reason(s). Meanwhile, we will try to spin it with a little humanitarian effort.

Lets face it, BushCo. is running the U.S. like a corporation. And for many reasons I don't disagree with that approach, i.e. increased efficiency within government.

The downside to that approach is every socio/political/economic situation is viewed in gains (accumulate capital) and losses (expenses in realizing that gain). Having firm control over Iraq means having control to the key to oil rich middle east. Moreover, Afghanistan is strategic in its location! It has been a conquest for many nations/empires throughout the ages. It wasn't more than a few decades ago the USSR spent thousands of lives to control that region, unsuccessfully. Even a communist state realizes it's importance.

Let's face it, the U.S. is an energy hungry nation and we need the petroleum resources. The expenses associated with obtaining control of this region is minimal compared to its economic gain. Our U.S. based corporations are already seeing profits by way of government contracts (paid by you and me). Vice President Chaney's former company, Haliburton, is one that comes to mind.

Tangent....

Economic Liberals - eloquently coined by Loyalan - biggest knock is it spends to much money on social programs and it balloons government to an unwieldy size. Liberals would prefer to fund the needy public education system and figure out how to save our environment. Over-expenditures to a neo-conservative...

Well I would prefer spending my money on my own people (and me) than the neo-conservative alternative. Namely, giving huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. Thus, increasing the tax burden on the (shrinking) middle class (me) and the (increasing) lower class. Promptly, turning around and giving huge contracts to sub-contractors (large corporations) of the Dept. of Defense. This is spun all in the name of job growth.

In reality we have lost more jobs and the growth in the GNP has been minuscule. Mainly propped up by low interest rates (cost of borrowing) and consumerism. All America has to show for this is fat gas guzzling SUV's and a crumbling social infrastructure.

Sorry I should stop now...

Peace,

Chris

Golden_Eternity

Thu 10/2/03, 11:06PM

OK, lets see if I get this...

Bush is bad. War is bad (unless Clinton is in office). Corporations are bad. Americans are imperialists in search of oil on foreign land despite the fact that we've got plenty off the coast and in Alaska (which the dems won't let us drill for)... All tax cuts are tax cuts for the rich. And we shouldn't give contracts to companies that know how to do what we're giving them contracts for because they're greedy SUV driving imperialists.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, yeah, funding welfare is better than creating jobs.

Oh, or did you oppose Bosnia, Kosovo and Somalia? Cause if you did, you're a hypocrit, and if you didn't then you're a heartless bastard... Tough call. Forget I asked.

I didn't realize I was Ultra-conservative... That just sounds cool... Ultra... I'm Ultra-conservative man! Rock on. Someone get me a radio talk show.

BTW, if I'm hell bent on uplifting the president's cause (i.e., the liberation of the Iraqi people from a murderous dictator, and the defense of our people against the threat of terrorism), what does that make you?

Oh, and back on the subject of liberal media... While your favorite news source was putting out stories about Arnold groping women, did they happen to mention that Gray Davis has a history of violence including striking his secretary in 93 because someone had rearranged some frames on his wall, sending her to the hospital? Or shaking another staffer "until [her] teeth rattled"? Check out an old story by Jill Stewart called "Closet Wacko vs. Mega-fibber" from the New Times Los Angeles (which doesn't exist anymore but you can find the text here (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=a-2410980934080001%40ppp-230-010.usc.edu&rnum=1) ), Nov. 27, 1997. Or here (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20021030.shtml) is a nice summary of his short temper.

Toad

Thu 10/2/03, 11:23PM

war for oil doesnt work. no one thinks it does. No, not even bush. Please pick another reason to hate him, because not only is that one transparent, it's boaring and old.

What does this have to do with the Governatorial elections agian? Eh, F*ck politics, I'm going riding.

-- James

SVelocity

Fri 10/3/03, 7:22AM

Golden_E,

Clearly you and I fall onto two different sides of the political fence.

I always enjoy having a quaility discussion, but....

I don't think you get it...

Please re-read my post(s) to understand my position and respond accordingly.

Thanks,

Chris

bwarbiany

Fri 10/3/03, 7:40AM

Normally I'd be jumping in on all this...

But this is just too much fun to watch ;) :D

Not to mention G_E is making all my points for me

SVelocity

Fri 10/3/03, 8:07AM

G_E - I found this site and I thought it would be helpful to you...

California Secretary of State (http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_recall_faqs.htm#5)

You do realize that only 30% of registered voters in California are Republican, right? And that there's no way in hell we could do anything on our own...?

That quote was from G_E

Wrong...

According to the Secretary of State there are approximately 15MM registered voters. According to G_E, 30% of those are Republican. My quick math tells me that is 4.5MM Republicans.

"To qualify the recall for the ballot, proponents need a minimum of 897,158 valid signatures. This is equal to 12 percent of the votes cast for the office of Governor in 2002, the last time the office was on the ballot."

It seems to me the GOP has that number covered.

Republican power play. Yes... Political Coup d'etat. No doubt...

Chris

bwarbiany

Fri 10/3/03, 8:34AM

Originally posted by SVelocity
According to the Secretary of State there are approximately 15MM registered voters. According to G_E, 30% of those are Republican. My quick math tells me that is 4.5MM Republicans.

"To qualify the recall for the ballot, proponents need a minimum of 897,158 valid signatures. This is equal to 12 percent of the votes cast for the office of Governor in 2002, the last time the office was on the ballot."

It seems to me the GOP has that number covered.

Republican power play. Yes... Political Coup d'etat. No doubt...

True, to get the recall on the ballot, it takes only 12%, and yes, the Republicans have that number covered. Of course, we'll not even mention how many of the people who signed those petitions were *NOT* registered republicans, and how many of the democrats support the recall...

But G_E also made the point that you need 50% of the RECALL VOTE to unseat the Governor. If 30% is true (I think the number is closer to 35%, but let's not split hairs), then if every registered republican voted yes on recall, and every other registered voter voted no on recall, it would not pass.

Truth be told, there is one aspect of this recall that does bother me. And it is a purely political calculation. I know that once the precedent of recall has been proven once, it will be much easier in the future for a Republican to be recalled than a Democrat. That does worry me. But to claim that this recall is only a Republican endeavor is dishonest, because although the Republicans have enough people to *force* the recall, they DO NOT have enough to win the 50% of the vote (assuming everyone votes).

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 9:00AM

Originally posted by bwarbiany
I think the number is closer to 35%, but let's not split hairs

Yeah, that's what I'm finding now, 35.28%... Everyone's been saying 30% for the last couple of weeks, so that's what I went off. Heh, in Los Angeles its only 15% repub... No wonder I feel so out of place. :)

Originally posted by bwarbiany
because although the Republicans have enough people to *force* the recall, they DO NOT have enough to win the 50% of the vote (assuming everyone votes).

Right, and that's what matters. You can force recalls all day long, but what matters is whether the person gets tossed out of office or not. If we mobilize ALL of our voters (which will never happen), and everyone else gets out even half of theirs (which usually happens), then we couldn't win.

Oh, and I think I got your positions pretty well there, Velocity. I just don't think you're able to reply. Which is fine, 'cause I'm tired of arguing bush in a cal gov thread... Its like Arianna at the debate all over again (but without all the shrieking, thank god).

SVelocity

Fri 10/3/03, 10:15AM

Originally posted by bwarbiany
But to claim that this recall is only a Republican endeavor is dishonest, because although the Republicans have enough people to *force* the recall, they DO NOT have enough to win the 50% of the vote (assuming everyone votes).

I don't think I was necessarily being dishonest. I don't think you would argue this whole process has been spearheaded by the Republicans. It is a Republican power play...

I don't blame Democrats, Greens, Independents, Socialists, Communists, Anarchists, etc... signing the recall petition. Davis has not done a good job, but I don't think they understand the magnitude of their actions. Furthermore, Davis has not be a derelict in his actions, negligent to his fiduciary responsibilities nor physically incapable of performing duties. To me, those seem to be a valid reasons to recall him. I have said it before, I am not a Davis supporter but that I am against this recall.

I do though support having the recall as a law because I think it is important for the voters to have a way to pull the plug on a gov. In this case, I believe the law is being misused.

Ask yourself, will California really be better off with Arnold as our Gov? Or, will we turn into the laughingstock like Minn. did under "The Body"?

Chris

stough

Fri 10/3/03, 10:19AM

There was a point where I really enjoyed arguing like GE and SVelocity are. However, like Kurt said, SVelocity is making all of my points for me...

Well, not really, he's being a bit stronger than I would be on some of the Iraq war issue. Maybe a decade of intense attention to politics has caused me to become a bit cynical, but all politicians lie to us to get support for the direction they want the country to go. Ok, well, maybe it's not actually lying, they all accentuate some things while totally ignoring others regardless of the relative importance of said facts. That's the way that government seems to be done in a democracy. I'm cool with that.

I don't like Bush because he's a Republican and has lots of ties with Neo-conservatives; these two facts taken together tell me something about his agenda with regards to abortion rights and social programs, and his feelings on the US' position in the world. Arney doesn't seem quite as bad; mostly because of the fact that he'll be running the state, not the country. For these reasons, and the fact that the Reps were so harsh on Clinton (how many independent counsels did we have?), I want to see Bush hung out to dry. Basically, it's payback and he deserves it.

As far as the recall election goes, I think that is was/is a bad idea. I voted touchscreen and thought that it worked great. Do you think that the oldsters will deal better with scantron than touchscreen? Possibly... We're not getting full touchscreen voting statewide until the price goes down.

Oh well, I'm rambling. Please continue the blood-thirsty debate; I'm loving it!

Later,
Tim.

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 10:52AM

Originally posted by SVelocity
I don't think I was necessarily being dishonest. I don't think you would argue this whole process has been spearheaded by the Republicans. It is a Republican power play...

I don't blame Democrats, Greens, Independents, Socialists, Communists, Anarchists, etc... signing the recall petition. Davis has not done a good job, but I don't think they understand the magnitude of their actions.

So, you agree that all parties signed the recall petition, but yet its a "republican power play"...? The Dems, Greens, etc are conspiring to put the repubs in office? Yeah, there's a good chance that a Republican will end up in office at the end, but that's the case with any election.

Originally posted by SVelocity
Furthermore, Davis has not be a derelict in his actions, negligent to his fiduciary responsibilities nor physically incapable of performing duties. To me, those seem to be a valid reasons to recall him.

Well, we agree that those are valid reasons, but we disagree about whether Davis has done his job. The guy sells his signature to any special interest that'll make a large enough contribution, he signs laws that are just plain stupid, that are bad ideas for our state financially, socially, and create a real security threat. He squandered away a 12bil surplus and created a 38 billion dollar deficit, then he lied about it until after election day, and tried to cover it up by borrowing money in violation of our state constitution, so that he could call the budget "balanced" even though we still are 38bil in the hole.

There used to be a web site that tracked Davis' contributions and compared them to the laws that he signed... Too bad its gone or we could end this debate pretty quick.

But since it isn't there, check this out...

Fiction: Davis has nothing to do with the current state deficit, it is a national problem and was caused by President Bush.

Fact: When Davis assumed office four years ago, he inherited a two-year $12 billion surplus. Davis raised the state general fund spending by 36 percent in his first term alone. While California’s population has only grown by five percent over the past three years, the state now spends $24 billion a year more than when governor Davis took office, an increase of nearly 32 percent. With Davis' continued mismanagement and reckless spending California now faces a staggering $38.2 billion budget deficit.

Fiction: It's not Davis' fault, the state has just been receiving less tax revenue.

Fact: Tax revenues grew 28% during Governor Davis's first term, well above inflation. But over the same period the Davis ran state spending went up 36%. Davis is spending $30 million a day more than the state is taking in.

Fiction: The Voters of the state knew the facts and voted to re-elect Davis.

Fact: During Davis' bid for re-election he lied and or misled the voters by understating the states financial well being. His projected $8 billion deficit has now raised to a national record setting $38.2 billion budget deficit. It is very doubtful the people in charge of running the state did not know the real projected deficit. And in turn if they underestimated by $30 billion that in itself should be enough to kick them out of office.

http://www.leavingcal.com/Recall-Gray-Davis-facts.html

Originally posted by SVelocity
Ask yourself, will California really be better off with Arnold as our Gov? Or, will we turn into the laughingstock like Minn. did under "The Body"?

California is already a laughingstock, and yes I do think California will be better off with Arnold as Gov. That's why I'll be voting for him on Tuesday.

SVelocity

Fri 10/3/03, 12:10PM

All right, all right...I concede. Mercy, mercy!

...Lets get that bastard Davis! Hasta la vista, Davis.

Just kidding...:D

Seriously, I'm confused with one point.

When Davis assumed office four years ago, he inherited a two-year $12 billion surplus.

Isn't this Davis' second term? Wasn't he elected in '98 then in '02? Have I missed something?

Check it. I don't have the energy right now to respond so read this...

Fact vs. Fiction: Your propaganda vs. Mine (http://www.no-recall.com/rhetoricvsreality.asp)

Ciao

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 12:44PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
Seriously, I'm confused with one point.

...

Isn't this Davis' second term? Wasn't he elected in '98 then in '02? Have I missed something?

Yup. Apparently you missed the possibility that the page I linked to was probably not written in the last couple of months.

Originally posted by SVelocity
Check it. I don't have the energy right now to respond so read this...

Fact vs. Fiction: Your propaganda vs. Mine (http://www.no-recall.com/rhetoricvsreality.asp)

OK, it says that reagan increased spending more than Davis did. Two problems here... First, increasing spending is one thing, increasing spending beyond the increase in revenues is another. Reagan was able to increase spending because he had more money to spend.

Second, Democrats tried to recall Reagan... twice.

SVelocity

Fri 10/3/03, 3:21PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
Yup. Apparently you missed the possibility that the page I linked to was probably not written in the last couple of months.

Thanks for being accurate...

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
OK, it says that reagan increased spending more than Davis did. Two problems here... First, increasing spending is one thing, increasing spending beyond the increase in revenues is another. Reagan was able to increase spending because he had more money to spend.

Second, Democrats tried to recall Reagan... twice.

Don't blame them...

Loyolan

Fri 10/3/03, 4:27PM

Hey SVelosity,

I'll try not to be offended by your comments.

You say your liberal because your educated, but I too am educated. Perhaps you misspelled indoctrinated. oh well...

The way I see it with Saddam & Iraq, its indisputable that Tens of thousands of Kurds were killed by the previous regime. Maybe your liberal education says this is ok, but I agree that we have t odo something about it. We all know of the vile and cruel thing Saddam & his folks have done without consequence (UN sanctions really only affect the citizens of a country, not the ruling class. If you want proof, compare the lifestyles of the two both before & after such sanctions.)

W - chemical/biological nerve agents
M - over 10,000 Kurds
D - killed

any questions?

-Daniel E. Adams

P.S. The avatar is a photo I had to have taken for my company. I know it looks gay, but I thought people might find some humor in it. :)

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 5:20PM

Originally posted by Loyolan
You say your liberal because your educated, but I too am educated.

I've actually got a diploma with Gray Davis' signature on it...

Originally posted by Loyolan
P.S. The avatar is a photo I had to have taken for my company. I know it looks gay, but I thought people might find some humor in it. :)

I feel your pain.

Hmm, does that make me a compassionate ultra-conservative?

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 6:40PM

Originally posted by stough
I don't like Bush because he's a Republican and has lots of ties with Neo-conservatives; these two facts taken together tell me something about his agenda with regards to abortion rights and social programs, and his feelings on the US' position in the world. Arney doesn't seem quite as bad; mostly because of the fact that he'll be running the state, not the country. For these reasons, and the fact that the Reps were so harsh on Clinton (how many independent counsels did we have?), I want to see Bush hung out to dry. Basically, it's payback and he deserves it.

You know, I don't care what party a person belongs to as long as they do the job well. I've voted for Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, and maybe a Natural Law or two. I would have voted for Clinton if I'd have been a month older (and boy am I glad that I wasn't).

I don't care that Clinton had an affair with Monica, but I do care that he commited purjury and so did congress. More importantly, I care about how badly he weakened our national security.

I'd welcome an independent counsel in this CIA leak thing, if the Democrats hadn't gotten rid of the provision that allows for one... But hey, bring it back and appoint one.

I don't want payback, I think that's childish and harmful to the ultimate goal of creating a strong and prosperous nation worthy of our founding fathers and the men and women who've sacrificed themselves so that we can keep living the dream.

Golden_Eternity

Fri 10/3/03, 6:55PM

I'm so ready for Wednesday.

Kurt'sSV

Fri 10/3/03, 6:59PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
I'm so ready for Wednesday.

Me too so I can take this political crap off the front page of our motorcycle club's website.

Golden_Eternity

Sun 10/5/03, 11:56PM

Looks like "I don't live in California" and "I can't/don't/won't vote" are gaining.

SVelocity

Mon 10/6/03, 1:55PM

Originally posted by Loyolan

I'll try not to be offended by your comments.

Please don't be...I was just trying to point out your comments might have offended a good percentage of Californians. I allowed my roommates (two women) to read your comments. Though they weren't completely offended but they were irritated and did believe you were off base.

Originally posted by Loyolan
You say your liberal because your educated, but I too am educated. Perhaps you misspelled indoctrinated. oh well...

First, let me apologize for that comment. I sure you are educated, but if you are educated by the Jesuits (as your name suggests) then I wonder who truly is indoctrinated. More appropriately, I should have said free-thinker or critical-thinker. But what was said, was said...

I went to St. Ignatius, a Jesuit high school in Chicago, which constantly tried to impose their values upon me and mold me into what they considered to be a upstanding citizen. If I were indoctrinated I would have accepted, uncritically, everything they taught me. I was taught the measure of success was your career, raising your family, and Christianity is the only "correct" religion. Anything that contradicts these values are wrong. I don't blame them for trying to make things black and white but life is more grey.

As life goes on and I try to improve myself I have found there are many different people with many different values and goals. Plus there are many ways to succeed. So good some bad, but you should never be afraid of things that are different. You must think freely and choose but I am sure you have...

I think this is why folks flock to California like the "Swallows of Capistrano". California is a place were you can think differently and at the same time not be condemned as an outcast. Essentially, having the freedom to live the life you want...

Originally posted by Loyolan

The way I see it with Saddam & Iraq, its indisputable that Tens of thousands of Kurds were killed by the previous regime. Maybe your liberal education says this is ok, but I agree that we have t odo something about it. We all know of the vile and cruel thing Saddam & his folks have done without consequence (UN sanctions really only affect the citizens of a country, not the ruling class. If you want proof, compare the lifestyles of the two both before & after such sanctions.)

W - chemical/biological nerve agents
M - over 10,000 Kurds
D - killed

any questions?

Ya, why didn't we take care of him during the first Iraqi war? Most of these atrocities took place once Desert Storm was over and we pulled back. I believe it was the U.S. who incited the Kurds to rebel against Saddam under the pretense we would come and support them. Since we didn't and once Saddam knew the U.S. wouldn't commit, he began the slaughter.

Originally posted by Loyolan
P.S. The avatar is a photo I had to have taken for my company. I know it looks gay, but I thought people might find some humor in it. :)

Who said anything about being gay? This must be something you are worried about.

No need to fear, contrary to my education, I have learned it's ok.

Peace,

Chris

SVelocity

Mon 10/6/03, 2:15PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
I'm so ready for Wednesday.

Me four...

I just want to say, even though this conversation is totally unrelated to the SV650 I still think it was important we had it. This is what forums are for...

I have enjoyed this discussion and more importantly, during a heated debate I believed we stayed civilized and we discussed the issues with respect for the others opinion.

I hope you all feel the same.

In case you don't, let me make a preemptive apology to those who I offended.

Thanks,

Chris

SVelocity

Mon 10/6/03, 2:30PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
Looks like "I don't live in California" and "I can't/don't/won't vote" are gaining.

We have close to 1800 members on this board, how come we have only 85 votes? Do you think this the same type of turnout we expect on Wednesday's election?

I hope not.

Kurt'sSV

Mon 10/6/03, 5:54PM

Originally posted by Loyolan

You say your liberal because your educated, but I too am educated. Perhaps you misspelled indoctrinated . . .

Perhaps you misspelled you're (twice). Am I the only person here that isn't too lazy to type Y O U ' R E?

Grammar! Grammar!

Golden_Eternity

Mon 10/6/03, 8:13PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
We have close to 1800 members on this board, how come we have only 85 votes? Do you think this the same type of turnout we expect on Wednesday's election?

I hope not.

They're actually expecting 60-80% of registered voters to turn out.

Golden_Eternity

Mon 10/6/03, 8:19PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
More appropriately, I should have said free-thinker or critical-thinker. But what was said, was said...

Oooh, lets go with that... Two of my degrees are in critical thinking. :D

Originally posted by SVelocity
Ya, why didn't we take care of him during the first Iraqi war? Most of these atrocities took place once Desert Storm was over and we pulled back. I believe it was the U.S. who incited the Kurds to rebel against Saddam under the pretense we would come and support them. Since we didn't and once Saddam knew the U.S. wouldn't commit, he began the slaughter.

It was a favor to the Brits.

Biggest mistake Bush 41 ever made, and you won't hear me support that decision... ever. We abandoned the Kurds, sent them back to their deaths.

There's nothing we can do to make up for that fact, but at least we finally are getting it right.

SVelocity

Mon 10/6/03, 10:45PM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
Oooh, lets go with that... Two of my degrees are in critical thinking. :D

How many do you have and what are they?

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity

It was a favor to the Brits.

Biggest mistake Bush 41 ever made, and you won't hear me support that decision... ever. We abandoned the Kurds, sent them back to their deaths.

G_E, after all this, I think we finally found something we agree on!

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity

There's nothing we can do to make up for that fact, but at least we finally are getting it right.

Well almost...

G_E, did you hear about Dubbya ordering a reorganization of the Afghani and Iraqi occupation forces under C. Rice? They are making it out to be the first admonishment by Bush that things aren't going as well as planned. Hmmm...me thinks things aren't as rosey as the picture that's been painted for us.

Were is Senior Chief Art Messer when you need him?

Chris

Golden_Eternity

Mon 10/6/03, 11:49PM

Originally posted by SVelocity
How many do you have and what are they?

AA Social Sciences w/ Philosophy Emphasis, AA Liberal Arts, and BA Philosophy (i.e., logic). I was also about 9 units away from an AA in Psych, if I had wanted it.

Originally posted by SVelocity
G_E, did you hear about Dubbya ordering a reorganization of the Afghani and Iraqi occupation forces under C. Rice? They are making it out to be the first admonishment by Bush that things aren't going as well as planned. Hmmm...me thinks things aren't as rosey as the picture that's been painted for us.

From reading what McLellan had to say in today's press briefing (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031006-5.html), they're creating the agency in anticipation of being able to put more funds into Iraq, once congress passes Bush's request. There is no reorganization of forces...

Q So what you're actually saying is, there really is no change.

MR. McCLELLAN: In terms of the Pentagon and Coalition Provisional Authority, you're absolutely right.

So, this isn't a "major overhaul" like Reuters and some other agencies are trying to make it out to be... Its barely even news.

Originally posted by SVelocity
Were is Senior Chief Art Messer when you need him?

Probably out rebuilding Iraq.

Golden_Eternity

Tue 10/7/03, 7:17AM

"I have voted, have you?"

Was #2 at my polling place... My father was #1. :)

Kurt'sSV

Tue 10/7/03, 9:09AM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
"I have voted, have you?"

Was #2 at my polling place... My father was #1. :)

You've got such a boner right now, don't you?

Golden_Eternity

Tue 10/7/03, 9:25AM

Originally posted by Kurt'sSV
You've got such a boner right now, don't you?

Well, that reporter chick from tokyo was quite the hottie.

SVelocity

Tue 10/7/03, 10:38AM

Originally posted by Golden_Eternity
"I have voted, have you?"

Of course....

Hey check this site out.

whitehouse.org (http://www.whitehouse.org/)

It's like "The Onion" but only for the Whitehouse...

Chris

Golden_Eternity

Tue 10/7/03, 6:36PM

Everything is pointing to a record turnout in the election. Drudge is currently saying its a landslide victory for Arnold.

Jesse Jackson is saying that if Davis loses they'll sue on the basis of voters being disenfranchised, but they won't sue if Davis wins. Apparently he doesn't care if Republican minority voters get disenfranchised. Frankly, I'm shocked! Shocked!

Golden_Eternity

Wed 10/8/03, 12:06AM

Welp, its all over but the counting... Soon the site should be returning to motorcycles and porn, as god intended.

But, before we close up shop, I figured I'd throw SVelocity a bone and tell him what my issues are with Bush the Younger.

I think Bush has been ineffective when it comes to the serious threats of Iran and North Korea... Neither of those nations can be allowed to go nuclear. I think we're in better shape with Iran, since they just have to look next door to get an idea of what they're in store for if they don't listen to us.

I was also very disappointed when we told Israel to back off of Arafat... He's their Osama and we tell them not to take the guy out? We should be offering to kick the door down for them, not telling them to leave old Yassir alone... The only silver lining is that Yassir apparently had a minor heart attack last week, so hopefully the dude is on the way out.

Otherwise, I'm pretty happy... And I'm ecstatic about Iraq.

So there you go... If Bush doesn't live up to my expectations, then I'll say it.

I read an interesting story on slate yesterday... The reporter had spoken with Hossein Khomeini, grandson of the big guy in Iran... Hossein is currently living in Baghdad... He moved there after we took out Hussein... Well the younger Khomeini said something interesting in this article... They were discussing solutions to problems in Iran and he said that the best possible situation would be an american invasion. "Bring the 82nd Airborne", he said...

Well, we're stretched kinda thin, and we don't have enough aircraft carriers... boy do I prefer the thought of fighting in Iran to Korea, though... My dad had a teacher in high school who had fought in Korea... He said that one battle was fought in an area so cold that they didn't bandage wounds, because the blood froze... Hell, I don't want to have to go into either region... but relying on talks and the UN didn't work very well in Iraq, I don't see it happening in Korea or Iran...

Anyway, that's way off topic... I'm tired and rambling... Night all.

(I'll be back)