How could someone think this is ok???

[Burst]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20020819-1345-nigeria-deathbystoning.html

Something very wrong with the way people are running their countries if they think this is an acceptable form of punishment.

[bwarbiany]

They apparently don't follow the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" view of morality...

Remember this is the same continent that mutilates their young women's genitals so that they don't enjoy sex and won't want to stray... It's strange that in societies like this, virtue is enforced, so that being virtuous isn't even a matter of wanting to do the right thing, as fear of doing the wrong thing.

Fucking savages, all of them.

Brad

[Setter32]

I think something is very wrong with people....... period.

This problem exist everywhere................ even in this country.

We may not throw stones anymore.................. but we do have words like ....... slut...... tramp....... ho......

What can you do.......

It's a sick little world.............. and I'm part of it......... like it or not.

[Aufaber]

MAN! how much would you have to smoke to get stoned to death!
8-}

[bwarbiany]

Setter,
I think calling someone a bad name is a little bit different than stoning them to death... To quote Pulp Fiction, "It's not even in the same ballpark. It's not even the same f***ing sport!"
Calling someone a nasty name is telling them that you think what they're doing is wrong. It's a little different than legislating that and enforcing it with the law...

Brad

[Kurt'sSV]

Maybe Setter was getting at the fact that even in our country we have ways of pointing down to women who enjoy their sexuality. We don't kill them, but we make a big deal out of it. Men's promiscuity is over looked, of course. I love being a man. :hog:

[Setter32]

Thank you............. Mr. Kurt.

:D

[bwarbiany]

Okay, point taken.

But their rules usually go much farther than impeding women's sexuality. The entire society simply doesn't really have the concepts of personal freedom and individual rights. That's where I was going...

Brad

[dnakase]

Originally posted by Aufaber
MAN! how much would you have to smoke to get stoned to death!
8-}

I'll sign up for dat xperment :D

On a serious note... didn't they just release a statistic that one on 36 adults in prison or under court supervision (probation).

This country has to lighten up.

[NukleoN]

THis problem is inherent to religions, including Christianity. Christianity is behind the Crusades (trying to wipe out the Muslims), the witchhunts in America in Europe, The Spanish Inquisition and has stood in the way of science...the Dark Ages are a good example of this..perfectly good knowledge being suppressed because some 'religion' was offended by it.

Basically...religion is dangerous if taken literally...even in America, we have fanatics blowing up abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors, trying to get their mystical incantations in school (prayer) and they wonder why these 'fanatics' are screaming Jihad. It's the same thing, different god.

People need to think for themselves. Legislating morality never has and never will work...the only thing that will work is a secular government where we enforce basic freedoms, and we certainly should not offer 'stoning' as punishment or any form of killing.

By the way, the 'Bible' also makes use of 'stoning' for atheists (Psalms 14:1) and homosexuals (Leviticus). So even though we conveniently ignore that today, it's in there and yes, it's cruel and stupid.

Such are the reasons I am not religious. Religion is a cancer of the mind it cannot go away soon enough for my tastes.

[bwarbiany]

That's why the founders of this country chose to separate religion from the administration of government. While I have no problem with people having a personal moral code based upon religion (as I'm sure Dan doesn't either), attempting to enforce this code on others, with backing of the state, is inherently wrong.

The abortion doctor thing is already illegal, and those people should be punished. Trying to say that religion is at fault for the world's problems is not really true. Religion has it's contribution to said problems, but unless enforced by the state, nobody has to pay any attention to religion. The abortion-doctor-killers are doing what I said above, trying to enforce their morality, which is, as stated above, wrong. However, this is not a state-sanctioned activity, and should be treated as a crime, as it has been.

Brad

[shearer216]

shit theres nothing worse too talk about than religon and politics because all youre gonna do is piss each other off. get rid of the boobies thread? hell no, get rid of this thread.

[Tine]

While this certainly seems like an extreme punishment for the 'crime' (and it is still a crime in many parts of the US, btw... not out of wedlock as much as adultery) there are still parts of the US where people are hanged. I would imagine that electrocution isn't so pleasant either.

A society deciding that someone has done something so horrible that they must be permanently and irrevocably removed from the society seems a bit extreme to me, no matter the crime. In the US we normally reserve this punishment for people who've commited murder.

So, it would seem that - in Nigeria - this is a crime that they've decided warrants the death penalty.

Also, my understanding of Shariah is that if the man had been caught he too would be put to death. (I seem to remember this happening recently in Iran, but can't find support for this... he was killed in some other way, while she was stoned to death.

There have now been 110 people freed from prisons in the US based on DNA evidence. http://innocenceproject.com/ Administration of Justice is not always fair and impartial.

:monkey:
Tine
(can we talk about motorcycles again now?):ass:

[Kurt'sSV]

Hey so who's up for riding Palomar on Sunday?:D

[Punkbrad]

Kurt, I would like to go I'll confirm tonight....

did i see you on beach yesterday about 4PM..?

Pb.

[NukleoN]

First, people need to discuss religion and politics. Religion needs to be discussed because if someone expects you to base your life on religion, they damn well better be able to answer a few questions. Also, it's the biggest lie ever told and I don't tolerate this idiotic fairy tale just because a few people believe it...that's like accepting those who say the Earth is riding on the back of a turtle because of the strength of their belief.

Politics? Bush is in the White House. We NEED to discuss this. :)

As for religion, I don't think it is the cause of ALL the world's problems, just problems which stem from religion itself (which are many). Religion must die. It makes people stupid. 9-11 is just ONE example of what religion can do...and abortion clinic bombings is yet another.

I don't begrudge people their right to believe in fairy tales or try and extract moral laws from them, but I DO take issue with them trying to foist their beliefs on me using the government, and I DO take issue with the fact that people *really believe* this dreck and will ACT on it, thus causing some of the mayhem we've witnessed throughout history.

The Dark Ages alone was a time of religious oppression where lots of valuable knowledge was lost...it probably set us back 400 years and religion continues to be the enemy of science and progress. Until religion dies, it will no doubt continue to be.

[Punkbrad]

wow NuK... that was heavy... all those years of religious studies i took finally made for some good chit-chat. i also think that religion can easily snuff out progress through repression of ideas and personal wills. i am a prime example of that. being forced into Christian schools for the first 12 years of my education. i guess the main thing that i learned about that one big book and all its moral value it that those who preach and teach it don’t know always what its like from outside that comfy bubble, and the things that they speak against are what makes people free-willed. free-will promotes curiosity in us and that curiosity is what leads to cures for disease, personal gain, and even kama sutra!

I think it a shame that that poor girl is to be killed by some "court" for only doing what humans in their simplest animal forms are meant to do.. reproduce. if those judges were given the chance, and they knew they would not be caught, they too would partake in those forbidden fruits, if they aren’t already.

my heart goes out to those women who are labeled and ostracized form society or dubbed as "sinners, whores, sluts, etc." when it’s the men who are making them that way. that man who impregnated her then turned his back to her and forsake all that he told that poor woman to get into her pants.. he should be on trial for not taking responsibility for his actions, instead of turning a blind eye.

i pray for that girl, to be sanctified by all and that she may live a normal life with her baby.

please keep open minds, dont snuff out the light that burns inside of all of us as humans, curiosity, knowledge, free-will. seek truths.

Zen Master Buddha Bodhidharma said ...
"People are scared to empty their minds fearing that they will be engulfed by the void. What they don't realize is that that void is their own minds"...

Zen Master Hui-Neng said...
"Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one Reality.

Peace be with that poor girl... :rose:

[shearer216]

So which religion is are you alluding to? There is nothing in Christianity that says do evil to others (read the new testament), read the 10 commandments, " love they neighbor, honor parents, don't steal" who gave us these rules "God" So if you look at Christianity: What in the ten commandants is stupid or harmful? Take a look at the art, music, literature, done in the name of religion. The Renaissance, was essentially a religious movement. The greatest period of mankind's move toward the arts!! All in the name of religion!
Since when does our Bill of Rights foist religion on you? As a matter of fact, not one article in the bill of rights "foists" religion on anyone. It does guarantee that you have the right to condemn the practice by others. As you seem to be doing. But it also allows for those to believe as they wish.

The problem does not come from the practice of religion but from the lack of following the rules and also from self interpretation. There more examples of harm done by amoral people than by the misinterpretation of religion. Examples: Hitler's desire to destroy Judaism, Stalin purges under which millions were killed, the Chinese communist purges of the 50's & 60's starving millions. Under the guise of no religion we abort 25 million babies a year in the US? Science can also perpetrate evil, i.e.: germ warfare, nuclear weapons, machine guns.

What sets us back is narrow minded thinking that you display that does not allow for laws above your narrow span of thought in which you belittle others, the very thing that you seem to despise. You can't blame religion for the what is distorted by men. What happens without religion or belief in a supreme being is that each person becomes his on moral authority, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. A much more dangerous thing. Which would you rather have?



Next time you feel mortal, would you rather know that there is more to your existence or would you rather just be foisted into the trash?

[Tine]

Couple points:
1) You ask us to look to the new testament, but then you immediately refer to something from the old (10 commandments)??
2) Hmmm... renaissance... more aptly the renaissance/reformation. Not the best example, I'd say. Yes, lots of great art and science was accomplished. I can't remember which pope it was that bancrupted the vatican to pay for the basilica in the middle of a pan-european famine. I don't think it was the Borgia (who had a son via his daughter....) Then you get into the whole reformation movement, which truley has no hero's... except maybe Thomas More...?

And... of course, this time period was rather full of executions even more 'barbaric' than this one. drawn and quartered or disembowled or burned at the stake (this seemed rather popular... apparently it took quite some time to die.)
Here's (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316545562/qid=1030772512/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-3750523-6510549?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) a great book on the time period, if you're into pop-history.

Tine:clown:

[NukleoN]

Shearer,

So which religion is are you alluding to?<

Did you read my post? I made a parallel with Islam and Christianity. I am showing that they are not all that different in that they have their fanatics. Do you disagree with this? You don't see atheists doing this sort of stuff.

> There is nothing in Christianity that says do evil to others<

WRONG! You could NOT be more wrong, and you clearly don't know the Bible. Not only is the Bible wrong about many things (does a hare really chew its cud?), it teaches HATE in many places. Let me state a few obvious examples, and again, I am taking this as evidence that you did not read my post.

First, the biggie. God KILLED every living thing on the planet (including babies and animals) except Noah and his family. This makes god evil, if you believe your own book. This also sets a precedent for killing that makes Hitler look like a girl scout.

EX 12:29 God kills every first born in Egypt. THat's really nice, isn't it?

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, A slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly. More loving Christian teaching via the Bible. The churches fought against the abolition of slavery because using the Bible as a defense. Same with women's suffrage...

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

Psalms 14:1 Says there are NO (read that, ZERO) good non-believers. We know this is false.

And MUCH more. Remember, this is YOUR KJV Bible, unless you read one of those apologist versions written and edited AND copywritten more recently.

> (read the new testament), read the 10 commandments, " love they neighbor, honor parents, don't steal" who gave us these rules "God" So if you look at Christianity: What in the ten commandants is stupid or harmful?<

Wow do you really debate like that? Picking an example of your choosing and then applying more former criticism to it? I noticed you specifically isolated the New Testament (because you probably find the Old Testament embarrassing, and rightfully so) and the ten commandments. Well do the 10 commandments say anything about The sabbath being on SATURDAY, which is the 7th day of the week? (Look at any calendar). The 10 commandments, by the way, don't nearly cover everything, and we don't NEED some stupid GRAVEN IMAGE of the 10 commandments to be moral (obviously).

> Take a look at the art, music, literature, done in the name of religion.<

Hitler, a purported Catholic, also loved dogs. People can and do all that art, music and literature WITHOUT religion, but people who are religious tend to kill people because their religion is offended. Again, 9-11 is a glaring example of this, and Christians tried to wipe out the Muslims during the Crusades (around 1000 A.D.).

By the way, the DARK AGES is when religion rules, and much LITERATURE was BURNED because it offended the medieval sensibilities of the religionists...religion has SUPPRESSED knowledge we otherwise might have today..including scientific knowledge. Religion has been against progress at nearly every turn, being against abolition of slavery, women's rights, abortion rights, the rights of non-believers (they were routinely killed by religionists until recently). Religion was behind the witch trials and killings all throughout Europe and America, was against autopsies and the use of anesthesia, and generally has been a thorn in the side of progress, and continues to be.

> The Renaissance, was essentially a religious movement. The greatest period of mankind's move toward the arts!! All in the name of religion!<

Ironic you should say this...the Rennaissance came as a result of the religion-soaked Dark Ages, where knowledge, literature and art were repressed. Just because Italian artists were commissioned to do religious art doesn't mean this was a Religious movement..the religious movement resulted in the Dark Ages. It is natural that where ideas aren't being suppressed, there will be a Rennaisance....by the way, is there a reason why Galileo was put under house arrest by the Catholic Church because he discovered that the Earth is not the center of the Universe, as the church thought? Is this your loving, artsy religion at work again? It seems that anyone who disagrees with this fairy tale is a heretic and this has played out through history.

>Since when does our Bill of Rights foist religion on you?<

Haha! That's ludicrous. I never said 'The Bill of Rights' foists religion on us, as you characterize. No, RELIGIONISTS try and force RELIGION on our government. And if you don't believe me, look at the Pledge of Allegiance (god was inserted in 1954) and our money (god was shoehorned on it in 56 and on coins a bit earlier). Our presidents have to swear on a Bible, bibles are in courtrooms....so yes, the religionists ARE trying to force their religion on us, they WANT this to be a Christian nation and lobby daily to make this happen. Thank goodness for the ACLU and people who care enough to resist freaks like Pat Robertson, John Ashcroft, etc.

> As a matter of fact, not one article in the bill of rights "foists" religion on anyone.<

Our founding fathers saw the dangers of mixing religion and government. Thomas Jefferson, a deist, established church state seperation and we sort of have that today, however, the Xtians in America aren't quite happy to leave it as it is and want MORE religion in government. Sadly, they succeed some of the time, but the secularists are fighting to keep this nation secular (and this is why you see people like Michael Newdow trying to get GOD out of our Pledge of Allegiance). The original Pledge did NOT have this mystical diety in it (and the Pledge was written by a minister, by the way).

> It does guarantee that you have the right to condemn the practice by others.<

I always condemn stupidity. Religion is fine if you want to practice it personally, but I will not tolerate it being foisted on me by anybody...nor will I pretend it makes sense when it doesn't. By the way, I am quite outnumbered by those who believe in this sort of stuff, so it's not like you have anything to worry about, and it will be a while before most people stop believing in their gods as they don't believe in gods outside their culture.

> As you seem to be doing. But it also allows for those to believe as they wish.<

I cannot stop you from your belief nor do I care to. I merely raise arguments against the all powerful, all knowing and all good spacepixie that people claim exists. I take even more issue with this when they are KILLING in the name of this space pixie. It pisses me off, and rightfully so. It should piss you off too.

>The problem does not come from the practice of religion but from the lack of following the rules and also from self interpretation.<

Wrong. Christians who take the Bible literally (as you should, right?) are the most dangerous, narrow minded Christians. For instance, if you REALLY believe that you're forgiven no matter what you do, what's the point of being moral? If you REALLY believe that God is telling you to kill homosexuals and the Bible DOES say this in Leviticus (that pesky Old Testament), then that creates a dangerous person who may very well do just this. Guess how the Bible recommends that Homosexuals be killer? Stoning. Sound familiar?

> There more examples of harm done by amoral people than by the misinterpretation of religion. Examples: Hitler's desire to destroy Judaism,<

Hitler was a Catholic, by the way. The S.S. wore belt buckles inscribed with what translates as 'God is on our side'. Perhaps Hitler hated Jews because he was taught that they killed Jesus, his Lord and Saviour? Do you see how religion potentially created hate here? This is the type of instiutionalized hate teaching which does make people hate Jews, quite often.

In fact, many racist organizations also invoke the name of God. Why? They often are racist BECAUSE of their beliefs, not IN SPITE of them. For instance, what race were Adam and Eve? It's a compelling question. I don't believe in Adam and Eve, but many racists believe they were CAUCASIAN or 'WHITE'. This sets a BAD precedent, and sadly, the better Christian you try to be, the more you have to embrace the hate and stupidity taught in the Bible. Same with the Koran...if you try to be a good Muslim, how can you ignore it when the Koran teaches you to 'treat the infidel harshly wherever you find them' or 'Kill the Infidel'? What is an infidel? A non-Muslim! Christians and atheists are infidels...now why is it that you believe in Christianity and not Islam? Is this because someone simply TOLD you to be a Christian, and so you are?

> Stalin purges under which millions were killed, <

Ask yourself why your all powerful god allows stuff like this to happen?

>the Chinese communist purges of the 50's & 60's starving millions. Under the guise of no religion we abort 25 million babies a year in the US? <

We don't abort BABIES, they are fetuses or embryos. And if a woman cannot choose to abort, WHO HAS CONTROL OF HER UTERUS? YOU? No. Pregnancies are parasitical life forms until they are viable...it is up to the woman. If Xtians want control of a women's uterus, can we control their brains and flush religion from it? By the way, GOD is the biggest abortionist ever, since most pregnancies abort NATURALLY.

>Science can also perpetrate evil, i.e.: germ warfare, nuclear weapons, machine guns. <

You don't like the idea of T-cells fighting viruses? No really...HUMANS build nukes with science, sure, but I am not saying that science CANNOT be used for bad, of course it can. Then again, science is not a moral system. It's a way of understanding the world through fact gathering, testing, experimentation, etc.

>What sets us back is narrow minded thinking that you display that does not allow for laws above your narrow span of thought in which you belittle others, the very thing that you seem to despise. <

My 'narrow minded' sort of thinking is merely questioning religion, including yours. My 'narrow mind' cannot grasp that your all powerful, all knowing, and all good space fairy on high can kill every living thing on the planet except Noah and his family and is somehow keenly interested in my sex life. My 'narrow mind' does not understand why theists want us to believe in their space pixie so bad that they will go door to door, on missions, build churches and even KILL to convince us of their story. Indeed, my 'narrow mind' would like answers to your fairy tale and the fairy tales of others which have had a stranglehold on the human condition for FAR too long. Yes, if only more of us could be more 'narrow minded' as to QUESTION your system of absolute morality handed down by 'he' who flung the galaxies into motion, but cannot feed hungry children or stop planes from being flown into buildings of this 'blessed' country.

>You can't blame religion for the what is distorted by men.<

MEN INVENTED RELIGION.

> What happens without religion or belief in a supreme being is that each person becomes his on moral authority, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. A much more dangerous thing. Which would you rather have?<

That's not only wrong, it's stupid and insulting. Hitler was a Catholic supported by Pope Pius XII. Why would the overwhelmingly Catholic nation of Germany tolerate Hitler if they didn't agree with him at the time? What you get without religion is someone who can be good without your ridiculous fairy tale, and THAT is scary to religionists who are desperately trying to save their dying religion.

>Next time you feel mortal, would you rather know that there is more to your existence or would you rather just be foisted into the trash?<

Do you have proof that we DON'T merely die when we die? When you eat your Big Mac, do you worry about whether the COW got into heaven, or are you thinking about your next Big Mac? What about roadkill? Frogs? Why is it that humans have invented a system where we live forever....are we that afraid of death? Basically, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is an afterlife. This is a fanciful tale taught as a pie-in-the-sky treat for those who properly believe in god. It is our reward. I will have you know that the terrorists on 9-11 who were so willing to DIE in the name of Jihad were ALSO expecting a bounty in Heaven, in an AFTERLIFE. This is another dangerous idea, as it promotes being dead over what really matters, being alive and making this one chance on Earth count for something.

By the way, Edison, Mark Twain, Einstein and Madame Curie (to name a few) were atheists. Hell must have air conditioning by now.



:geek:

[PasCaTT]

Amen!

[NukleoN]

Thanks Pascatt. I got yer meaning. ;)

[Setter32]

Easy guys.

Debates are good..........but lets keep the "temper" level down guys..........yeah baby..... :D

We all have more things in common than differences. I think we all agree that there is something seriously wrong with the world.............. we just differ on the source of the grief.

Personally I differ with you both on that. Bottom line............ the human race is fucked up............. to put it simply. Get rid of all the pretenses that people hide behind ........(be it religion, science, political, or what ever else ideology you wanna throw in there)...............for justifications to do harm to others, and what's left is "people".

The knife.....itself is not evil nor good........it's the wielder.

The gun......itself is not evil nor good........it's the shooter.

The same goes for religion...... or science...or what ever.....

By the way...........

The SV...... itself is not evil nor good......... it's the rider.............:D

I've met Shearer......... he's a nice guy..........honest.......... But since I know he won't bring it up.... I will. He's one of the guys that would be the first to go out there and defend our right to .......debate, choose our own religion, or to be a sex starve heathen....... like myself. He's a "marine".........and I have the utmost respect for people like him............ who are willing to put their asses on the line for the freedom that smucks like us enjoy. I felt I needed to bring that up because it looks like he's outnumbered here........... and also to give you guys a better idea of where's he's coming from.......... also, I have a soft spot for marines.

Just so there are no misunderstandings............... I'm an atheist................. if you haven't figured that out already.

Lets hope us monkeys evolve out of this ridiculous mess.

:D

damn.......this is gettin heavy.

:D

[NukleoN]

Setter..

It's not the person I take issue with, it's their religious indoctrination. The nicest people, when trying to defend religion, well...it sometimes makes them sound a lot less nice and a lot less intelligent than they are. Still, I was once a theist...I know this personally.

Either way...atheists are most definitely outnumbered by theists in America and most likely, on this board. Numbers don't make someone right or wrong, as I am sure most of us realize.

In any event, I pay special attention to evil deeds done in the name of religion, probably because I like to find fault in a belief system which claims special knowledge of an all powerful being and which has a stranglehold on morality.

When people like Shearer, doubtless an otherwise good guy, compare me to Pol Pot and Hitler because of my lack of religion, I can see religion raising the ugly head of indoctrination and hate toward those who don't believe. The problem stems from Psalms 14:1 where the Holey Babble claims that there is NO ATHEIST who is GOOD. This is a pretty damning statement.

This is nothing new in history...at one time religionists would have simply killed people like myself and Setter. Such religious teaching is very bad for we atheists, which is why most of us in our 22 million strong are still mostly closeted, and are probably the most hated minority in America, if not the world. We see these Christians with fish all over their cars and minivans, but Darwin or Evole fish? Yer asking for vandalism. It is cooler to be gay even than atheist...and I of course don't begrudge gay people their lifestyle in the slightest (I didn't choose to be straight, did I?).

So forgive me if I am a bit angry at religion and its brainwashed masses...I think it's high time someone got angry about it. Religionists are happiest when unopposed I guess...it's *really* hard to defend religion and no wonder they get angry when we bring the slightest bit of scrutiny to bear on this oft unchallenged mysiticism.

I will end with the pledge as it was before some diety was inserted:

:flag:

'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United of America,
and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

:flag:

That, my friends, includes EVERYONE in America. This 'under God' stuff does not.

That said, I'm about to travel through time, I bid you adieu.

:geek:

[NukleoN]

Shearer and I have agreed to disagree in offline emails. I believe he is a nice person, and I too am a nice person (or so I am told). We are more than our atheism and our theism. I am just grateful that we live in a country where we can express our diametrically opposed views, no matter how empassioned, and live to tell about it. ;)

So anyhoo....yes I get a bit steamed when it comes to religion...but onward SV soldiers...I shan't belabor the topic.

OMG I said 'shan't'. Please kill me now. :evil:

[shearer216]

yes were all nice people :D
having said that i think we can all agree, thank god bush is in the whitehouse:eek: :D :angel:

[Setter32]

oh......isn't that freakin sweet.

I'm getting all "vaklempt"...............sniff ............ discuss amongst yourselves.....................topic.............. ....." How to get Rod laid..... without paying for it"...............


Anyone knows how to properly spell "vaklempt" ?


:D

[shearer216]

i dont even know what that means! i think we should discuss your abuse of the . key ...................:D
..........steve

[Setter32]

Hey!......... don't get started with me on the philosophical aspect of the " . " key............

:D

[ersigh]

Nukleon - I yet again feel compelled to applaude you. Although some are jumping up and squaking that one needs to remember that everyone is nice, you always manage to remain respectful and do not issue personal attacks while debating (well for me, you are educating, not debating) ... few people can do this as well as I've seen you do.

You always manage to keep my attention on a subject I generally will ignore (most of these sorts of discussions/arguements are boring, everyone saying the same things "i'm right! i'm right! YOU POOPY!!") ... make me laugh and I always learn something. :)

It surprises me, that so far, the conversations on this particular forum have always managed to remain relatively intellectual ... usually these conversations burst into flames. It says something for the collection of people here ... (good brains good brains) ...

[Setter32]

That's just down right sick..................... Who said that everyone is nice?.................. That bastard oughta be shot.........

And for the one that was jumping and squatting................. if you're female.............call me :o ...................

oh wait................ it was squawking....not squatting......................never mind.......

:D

[NukleoN]

Originally posted by ersigh
Nukleon - I yet again feel compelled to applaude you. Although some are jumping up and squaking that one needs to remember that everyone is nice, you always manage to remain respectful and do not issue personal attacks while debating (well for me, you are educating, not debating) ... few people can do this as well as I've seen you do.

Heh...thanks Leigh, I really appreciate that. One thing I've learned in debating this topic for over 10 years is that ye cannot attack the person, just the argument. A lot of 'new' debaters tend to make the mistake of 'Ad Hominem' attacks, or attacks on your character, but this really doesn't help the argument at hand. :)


You always manage to keep my attention on a subject I generally will ignore (most of these sorts of discussions/arguements are boring, everyone saying the same things "i'm right! i'm right! YOU POOPY!!") ... make me laugh and I always learn something. :)

Heh...I hear ya..yep the best method I think is to attack someone's position, but allow them to save face....so I go out of my way not to insult people personally. Some people may claim that I am offending them if I scutinize religion at all, but I'd simply say I am much more offended having been forced to listen to theists who outnumber me and have successfully installed their beliefs onto currency, courtrooms, the Pledge of Allegiance, etc.

Someone out there was offended when someone questioned slavery, but it was questioned, and despite fierce opposition, slavery was eventually abolished in America.

The way I see it, it is quite offensive to theists that we're atheists as it is, so it's even more critical to stick to the issues.

It surprises me, that so far, the conversations on this particular forum have always managed to remain relatively intellectual ... usually these conversations burst into flames. It says something for the collection of people here ... (good brains good brains) ...

Heh...well I have to commend Shearer too...he didn't dissolve into empty Bible Babble in effort to 'rebuke' me as some Xtians have done in debates...I sense that he actually thinks about what he's reading. Most often, religion is simply something that people haven't questioned...ever! I know it's hard to believe, but many people are so sheltered by other theists and societal reinforcement that they just never bother to question their beliefs...then when some rogue atheist comes along, outnumbered and reviled by the Biblical teachings, its easy to ignore him.

Either way...I like to give theists the benefit of the doubt when debating. If I find that they continually ignore facts or contradictions in their arguments (and sound like a broken record), it becomes apparent that they're not thinking or listening, and that's when you know you're wasting your time. ;) However, in this day and age..most theists are pretty reasonable..they've just never been properly 'challenged' as to why they hold their beliefs.

Anyway...thanks for the nice words. ;)

[bwarbiany]

I'm going to try not to get involved here, I stopped debating religion a long time ago... It rarely actually goes anywhere...

But I agree that many people don't really ever question religion... My fiancee's family is catholic, I was raised Lutheran, although I'd consider myself atheist or agnostic now... But apparently I cannot commune in the catholic church... The reason, or so I'm told, is that catholics actually believe that the wine and bread is actually Jesus's blood and body... And most protestants don't... So, of course, I had to bring up the point that I've tasted blood (my own, of course, when cut, I'm not some heathen here), and that the stuff in church certainly tastes like wine, not blood... I didn't really get an answer to that one :D

I think with people like that, especially with Catholicism, it's so much fun to just ask "Why?" when they talk about those crazy church rules... Usually they have no clue... ;)

Brad

[NukleoN]

And what I find more disturbing is that this 'blood' and 'body' of Jesus represents the REAL THING! So to that end, if Jesus were to appear, would these Catholics eat him and drink his blood for real?

In any event it smacks of cannibalism and I'll have no part of it. ;)

By the way Brad, I can solve this atheist or agnostic dilemma for you right now.

There is no such thing as 'agnostic', logically speaking that is.

Why? Well, the word 'agnostic' was invented around 1869 by Thomas Henry Huxley and literally means, 'without knowledge' as atheism means, without theism. So if you claim 'agnosticism' about a god or gods, then you claim to be without knowledge of this. However, if you disavow knowledge of god(s), then you necessarily cannot believe in it!

This is the same logic which applies to why you and I don't believe in the gods that have not been invented yet. When they are invented, we will have knowledge of the claim and can summarily lean on it with the full weight of our intellect.

If you have heard of a claim of god (and claims are all there are), then you are again, not an agnostic because you have knowledge of the claim. Since the claims for gods are all there are, then you are free to logically debunk all claims as they come.

We all know or can easily learn of the claims of Jesus, God, Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, etc. It is ironic that most theists are as atheist about all gods outside their culture, making an exception for the one god taught to them by their parents and reinforced by their society. It is ironic because no more proof for the Xtian god exists than for let's say, Allah, the god of the 9-11 terrorists who have declared holy war on us.

Sure, one could say that nobody has *empirical* evidence of god(s), and this is true (more reason not to believe in such things), but we have *logical* evidence against the claims and can dismiss them in the same way we confidently dismiss the Greek Gods, unicorns or invisible pink toads from outer space.

Also, if your answer to 'Do you believe in god?' is a resounding no, then you are an atheist (without a belief in god(s). If you're unsure, and you don't believe in god, then you are still an atheist. If you do believe in god whether you're unsure or not, you're a believer, and hence, a theist. My point here is that degree is irrelevant..people are either atheist or theist. Theists believe DESPITE the lack of evidence, atheists disbelieve BECAUSE of the lack of evidence.

Agnosticism is not a valid logical position and logically, it equals atheism and is unnecessary and confusing at best.

[Monte]

When I say I'm agnostic, I go by the definition given here (http://www.m-w.com/) - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. I figure there's only one way to find out, and since I plan on living forever, I guess I'll never know. :) Basically, I'm an atheist who tries to keep an open mind. On a related note, this dictionary also describes the etymology of the word agnostic as: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know.

[Punkbrad]

With all the debate about religion, I have to say, I too am surprised. I was raised in a Christian home, in private Christian schools, and I took away a great understanding of the history of the period, but little understanding of why i should believe. I have developed my own set of beliefs, based on what "works for me" i don't believe that my beliefes are in vain, simply because they do work for me, and if its working, then its not in vain, right?? Thats my two cents... I think its rad that people can openly persue such topics in an adult manner, most of the time you open that can of worms, feelings get hurt... I think we have a decent bunch of folks too...

Keep on truckin'

Pb.

:)

[bwarbiany]

My position is the same as MrPython... I am currently witholding belief in God, but admit that certain changes could occur that might change said belief.

As it stands, though, I think religion is really messed up though, because absent of whether or not there is a god, man has done a really good job of screwing up organized religion. I have my own ideas about what god is if god exists, and it doesn't fully jive with any established religion.

Brad

[ersigh]

I went to church as a child ... I had no idea that when these people were talking, telling stories, etc ... that they believed what they said was fact. I actually believed that I was going to a place where grownups and kids went for story telling (my mom didn't go, but she permitted me to).

The church I went to was ran by some family members I am not particularly familiar with. The last time I went, was when this lady, who was some sort of removed grandmother (mother to a stepaunt or something), told me to be careful to not follow in the footsteps of my parents. That there are two roads, the twisty rocky road and the smooth, straight road ... that if one takes the easy route, as my parents do ... my moms boyfriend having long hair, them listening to rock music ... riding motorcycles, that they will go to hell.

This woman told me, a 7 year old child, that my parents were going to go to hell. A place that I thought was mythical ... she said this, and I stood there, staring at this ugly old lady, my head trying to wrap itself around the fact that a grown up was believing in this (they had gone over the Ark story that day, and i remember fixating that this woman believed our world as it is, came from a boat of animals paired off ...) ... I never believed in Santa, so this person seemed incredibly stupid to me. I was so offended ... I left, and never went back to that church.

I went to other churches over the years, out of curiousity. Once I realized that people believed this (i don't know how it was that i was brought up so devoid of an awareness for religion) I wanted to analyze them, I wanted to learn about the various branches of religion.

I went thru a phase where I tried to wrap my head around believing in something I didn't feel, or couldn't see. But all it did was make me feel lost, because I wasn't following the path that made the most logical sense to me.

The more I learned, the more I disliked religion. I went thru a phase of pretty much hating religious people, they all seemed sick to me. Weak in the mind.

I got into a relationship with this person who was/is a devote Xian (although his xianness is now very different than it was before) ... it changed me a lot.

I don't hate people who are religious. I still hate religion. It makes me angry, the ugly things people have done in the name of someone they love, put faith in and who supposively loves them. I refuse to celebrate holidays that are religion based ... even ones as simple as St. Patricks day ... where people are celebrating druids being chased out by the church...

I won't associate with ignorant religious people, mostly because they simply are not any fun to hang out with ... educated people in general, seem to be a lot more laid back about what other people are doing, and dont' seem to feel the need to take their beliefs and shove them down other people's throats. However, educated religious people seem to live lifestyles not all that religious.

As far as sitting on the fence about belief ... I have a hard time feeling that it's possible to really do that. Whatever keeps them from choosing which side of the fence they are on ... is stemmed from fear.

The way I see the world, science, logic ... no theism ... it makes me happy. It has for a very long time. There was a time, before I found myself ... that I felt really lost, and was really unhappy ... I wanted to believe in something ... because I needed a sense of direction, a feeling of belonging ...

It's probably one of my more dismissive ideals. But I tend to feel, especially after listening to people, that a large percentage of people are religious because they are aimless. They have no sense of belonging. It seems like people who have found their direction (internally moreso than externally) tend not to cling to theism. It's like being part of a gang, or always needing someone with you when you go to do something ...

I dunno. I'm half asleep now ...

[Burst]

I have to agree with Leigh... It seems to me that people seek out *god* for a sense of well being or belonging. A purpose.

I experienced this when I was battling depression. Went to church and it made me feel all better. That is, until I started noticing how much they contradicted themselves. Seeing one minute the pastor is teaching acceptance and the next minute damning people who don't believe. Saying there is no other way than their way. I cannot place any faith in something that is so inconsistent.

I do not believe that the purpose of my life is to glorify this so-called god. Even if everything in the bible were true, why would I want to worship a god that is so vain that he needs billions of people to worship him? Why, if god is all knowing and all loving, would he demand people devote their lives to him, and condemn anyone to an eternity of pain and suffering who did not do so? Even if they lived a good life?

The best thing anyone can do is question what you are being taught. If the answers you receive are satisfactory then dive in head first and have a blast. If not, then move one. You cannot make an informed decision unless you ask questions.

Live a good life, believe in what you choose to, do not interfere with others right to do the same and we will have no problems getting along. :D

[Setter32]

Bingo Gregg...........

You should question "everything"............. that includes religion, science, the news, or what ever else that comes down the pipe line. If you don't ................. then that brain of yours is just a waste of space.

Hey...........but what ever works for you. :*


man has done a really good job of screwing up organized religion.

I'm with you on that one Bwarb................."Man" has pretty much done a really good job on screwing up everything he can get his paws on.

Though some of us are trying to rectify that as best we can...........it's a good sign for us monkeys.

:monkey: :D

[NukleoN]

One more thing about agnosticism..

If god is unknowable, then that is all the more reason not to believe in it, pending proof or otherwise. Again, this logically leads to atheism.

I too will accept proof for god or the invisible pink unicorn, but there is none forthcoming I suspect. :D

Not to mention, you CAN *logically* disprove god, it's rather easy since the definition negates itself out of existence.

[Retrostrike]

Hello all, my name is Luke..I'm new to the message board so if you could find it in your hearts to indulge me for a bit, I would greatly appreciate it. I noticed the topic that you all are discussing is about God..or should I say lack thereof.

I myself am a Christian. I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins. And within three days, rose again and is now my living Lord and Savior.

I do not want to come off as if I know everything, for I know nothing compared to some. But I only wanted to bring to light a few issues if I may. Feel free to read if you like, but I force no one into doing so.

Atheism - Does not believe in a God. If one does not believe in a God, then one must believe that the world in itself was evolved from some sort of cosmic bang (Big Bang Theory), or some other form of scientific explanation. Assume there was a small bang outside your room that you heard but did not see. And if I told you that the small bang came from nothing, you would not believe me. The same could be applied to the Big Bang. For every beginning there has to be a Beginner. And if one should believe that we evolved, so to speak, from say a primitive life form such as an ape, then our origins as men are just natural. Thus we should be only governed by the natural cycle of life. And if one should look at life in itself, one would realize that life is emminetly evil, that there is no real good to be found. For one life form prays upon another and so on up the food chain. The universe itself is evil as well, seeing as how one day this earth will be destroyed and all our dreams and hopes will die on the endless mass of nothingness. Thus life is nullifed. So how, in the face of all this destruction did man ever come up with the universe being created by a good and righteous Creator?

I too struggled with these thoughts. I too had doubts that there is a God and I too did not believe for a long time. But I realized that if there is no God and there is no one to answer to, then honestly, the only thing/person we need to answer to is ourselves. Then morality never should have entered the picture for we are all just basic animals evolved into higher level species. But basics would rule, and morality would never play as big of a role as it does now. Not one evolutionist can explain human morality and the origins of it. Man knows that rape is wrong, but in nature it happens all the time. And in actuality, if we feel that only the strong survive, then rape would be a top priority, for the need to breed better than before would be on the forefront of our minds.

Without God there would be no morality. There would be no base line to know what is right or wrong. Therefore the world would be thrown into chaos....

[ersigh]

I do not believe that the purpose of my life is to glorify this so-called god. Even if everything in the bible were true, why would I want to worship a god that is so vain that he needs billions of people to worship him? Why, if god is all knowing and all loving, would he demand people devote their lives to him, and condemn anyone to an eternity of pain and suffering who did not do so? Even if they lived a good life?


Why would people want to devote their lives to a space pixie who is basically a bad person? By definition of all things stated, God is like an abusive parent ...

Ugh.

I just got this mental thing going on, where I started seeing xians and what not as being like people in abusive relationships, where no matter how bad things get, they always are looking for the good in the other person ... so that when something good happens, even if the abusive person didn't create the positive happening, the abused person will give credit ...

"I've been poor, my legs fell off ... but I got a free can of soup at the store! God is mighty!"

(okay i'm bad, sorry)

(now i'm sad)

I agree with you, about the life moral ... I have lived by this. I live to make the most out of my life, because I think it's amazing and wonderful that I'm alive ... if there was a god, if me appriciating the gift given to me, and making the most out of it is not worth while ... I think I'd rather burn.

I figure, if there was a god, they'd have to be some sort of alien similiar to us, with an ego and who is not perfect ... that or some human wrote a terrible article way back when that totally misquoted and misrepresented god, and god was never able to sue the company to retract the article.

Originally posted by Setter32
Bingo Gregg...........

I'm with you on that one Bwarb................."Man" has pretty much done a really good job on screwing up everything he can get his paws on.


Man CREATED organized religion ... how can he screw it up? There are good branches and bad branches even now ... organized religion does not change the ugliness that exists within the bible ... people who say they are xian but ignore the ugliness in the bible are not xians ...

If a person wants to have a relationship with a diety they believe in, so be it. But if a person is going to lay claim to a specific section of organized religion, then I believe that they should educate themselves as to what it is they are claiming.

Why say you are a biker, if you've never ridden a bike?

[Kurt'sSV]

Yeah well, you're all going to hell anyway.:evil: see you there.

[bwarbiany]

Okay, two things...

First, presupposing that the universe has been around forever (perhaps it was not a "Big Bang" where the universe became something out of nothing, but has always been here, expanding and contracting regularly), would be, IMHO, less of or the same leap of faith as believing there is a god. Either way, it's less of a leap of faith than trying to ascribe properties onto said god (such as infinite goodness, etc), and having any illusions that my religion is the one favored by god. For all we know, there might be a god who was bored, created the universe, and doesn't give a rat's ass about us. God might be the god you believe in, but we don't really have any way to tell.

But the more important issue, regarding morality. Humans have the gift of reason, which allows us to decide what is right or wrong. My personal view of morality is that you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't impede on the rights of others. Your right to want sex, doesn't give you the right to force someone to have it with you (to use your example). For me, morality is staying out of other people's way, and them staying out of mine. You don't need a god for morality, you need an understanding of the world. I.e. it's similar to the golden rule. That says "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you." I think, more accurately, it should be "Don't do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."

Just my two cents, although I keep trying to stay out of this...

Brad

[Retrostrike]

Man's reason is a bigger evil than anything.
It's through reason alone that Man can inflict more harm on a person then say a creature with no reason, such as a dog. If I were to hold a gun to a dog's head the dog would feel no mental anguish before I pulled the trigger. But if I were to hold a gun to a man's head, the pain inflicted just mentally -- by me holding the gun to his head, is at least 100 times more painful than me pulling the trigger.
And how did reason come about? For the lower life forms of creatures don't obtain this tool, but men do. The bikes you ride are designed for a reason: by intelligent designers. Just as we men are designed for a reason: by an intelligent designer. Did you know that life could never have started on this earth without the world being perfectly placed in our solar system? And that for life just to randomly appear on this earth through chemical reactions is so mind blown that we couldn't even fathom the number mass equivalent. Take for instance, a one celled organism (bacteria). There is more information stored in that one cell organism than in any supercomputer.
I have at length tried to explain away God and my very existance upon this planet... But everytime I study something I always draw the same conclusion: that there is insurmountable evidence that points to a Creator. I humbly ask that each of you study at length and search for the truth. For me, it has been an adventure that I will always pursue for the rest of my life. These things are too important just to believe in what others say about it.
How did we get here?
Why are we here?
Where are we going?

[Kurt'sSV]

Retrostrike, I think I can answer your three questions.

1. How did we get there?
Why on our motorcycles, silly. That's what this forum is about.

2. Why are we here?
To test are skills on these tight curves.

3. Where are we going?
To jail if we get caught.

Anyone have anything else?

[NukleoN]

Luke,

As for Jesus...are you suggesting that Jesus (who is God) died on the cross to save us from the wrath of God, essentially, himself? By the way if the all powerful space being called 'god' knows all things, he knew he would threaten to wipe us all out but for his sacrifice of himself in human form disguised as his own son, making this god creature one evil conman. What would be the point, since god should already know who is going to be saved or not before he even killed himself in the form of his own son on the cross. Not to mention, this god creature DID wipe everyone out except Noah and his family in what Christians call the 'great' flood, if we are to believe the KJV Bible. Why did god need to kill every living thing on the planet (except Noah and his family) if he KNEW that this would happen in the first place? Is it really fair that god killed all those babies, animals and innocents along with a few wicked people? This makes god a bigger mass murderer than all other killers in the history of the Earth, combined.

Also, as Brad said, it is easier to infer that the Universe is 'all there is' when we can PROVE there is a Universe. To assume a god creature exists and made itself from nothing is a vast, unfounded assumption, and you cannot prove that this god exists. Invoking Occam's Razor, the simpler explanation with less assumptions wins out. The Universe exists whether you add the unnecessary god assertion or not..I simply choose not to complicate a perfectly natural explanation by adding mystical space pixies to the equasion.

It's like saying, 'Hey I lost my wallet'. Either:

1. I misplaced it
2. Someone stole it
3. Space aliens beamed it up to their spaceship

Which explanation(s) seem most plausible? We would call the believer of #3 a madman...yes people expect us to believe equally implausible assertions when it comes to the so-called 'creation' of the Universe or this 'god' creature.

As for morality..I already addressed this in earlier posts (had you been reading them). There are some 22 million atheists in America alone..were there no morality without theism, we would all be in jail or at least have records. Jails currently have a minimal representation of atheists, and this bears out in polls you can check yourself. By the way, are you saying that all non theists and non Christians are without morality as well? You would almost have to say that, since all those not saved by Jesus are going straight to Hell, right? Do you think God makes people specifically so they can go to Hell, because he has to know who is going to Hell beforehand, right? This means, god is busy making atheists knowing they will just end up in Hell. Some loving god you have.

How do you know you're not worshipping the wrong God? Maybe you are going to Islam Hell! :)

[Kurt'sSV]

Speaking of wickedness, I did a wicked wheelie the other day. :squid:

[linp]

Awesome! I gotta learn how to wheelie.

This guy wearing a hawaiian shirt, half-helmet on a Speed Triple on Mira Mesa Blvd did two crazy, block-long wheelies in front of me this afternoon. He probably thinks I've never seen a wheelie before or something... :squid:

Oh yea, I had a religious experience at the Ozzfest yesterday. Lots of people wearing tshirts with the word "God"... ie, "God is busy, may I help you?"

[Setter32]

First of all........welcome to the board Luke.

Now.......... to debate your ass.

Big Bang theory :

It may not be fact........hence the word "theory"..........but there are evidences that are measurable that we have obtain to point us to this particular direction. Unlike western religion.......where there is no evidence what so ever. Basically...... you're taking someones word for it........with "nothing" to back it up. The "book" said so.......therefore it's true. Sorry........not good enough for me.

Us monkeys :

Unlike the "Big Bang" theory.........evolution is not a theory. This is now a fact. There is an "overwhelming" amout of data........to absolutely corroborate this........including hard data from the field of genetics. I will not debate this particular point......since it's like debating the fact that 2+2=4........ and somebody telling me that it's 5 and not 4........because the "book" said so. But I will bring one question up.......that most western theist have avoided anwering........ If we came from Adam and Eve, then we are the result of incest......... "incest".......is that not a sin in the bible?.......hmmmmm......

Morals :

Who decided that morals does not exist without religion? Where is the data for this? It's true many cultures based their laws on religious aspects.........but that does not prove that you need religion to have morals. Does a child of 4 or 5 years of age.......who is totally unaware of any religious dogma......... have morals when she feel sad when she see an animal being hurt......and is compelled to protect......or to seek out a source of protection for the animal..... and to aid the animal in its recovery? Is she moral or immoral? And what about the individual that is inflicting harm on the animal......but is religious. Is he moral or immoral?............The bible does allow for animal sacrifices right? Is hunting for just the pleasure of killing allowed by the "book"? Most of us eat meat...... though we don't need to...........right? Whose morals..........?

There are examples of many cultures that are not religious.....but still have moral standards.

Hypocrisies..........which we all are guilty of...........just a matter of degree.............don't get me started.

But.........what ever works for you baby...........yeah....... :*


:D

[NukleoN]

This is old. This postulates that a 'god' designed everything.

However, if this is the case, then god designs evil as well as good, indiscriminately. If not, god is not sole creator of all things, and is relegated to 'co-designer'. If so, god is evil.

If you believe god made *all* things, he made disease of all types, pestilence, suffering, and evil. God is also apparently powerless to stop evil (Satan included). The Bible freely admits that god could not stop a chariot of iron.

Since Noah and his family were the only ones left after the flood, they must have had every venereal disease possible in order for those particular diseases to exist today.

Keep em coming. ;)

[Kurt'sSV]

Captain Kirk has a point there, guys.

[Setter32]

Almost forgot......

Yo Luke............Got a sista?

:D

[NukleoN]

A theory is simply an explanation for a body of facts.

A theory does not mean we cannot place confidence in it...for instance, evolution and gravity are both 'just theories' but we place a great deal of confidence in them because they have been scrutinized and have stood the test of scientific peer review.

Science works in such a way that we allow new data to affect our current position, hence the usage of the word theory. Religion makes a claim and then attempts to twist reality/history to fit.

We know that evolution is true with the certainty that we know gravity exists or that the Earth revolves around the sun. Theories can be tested and there has to be grounds for falsification (as there should be with any theory). The beauty of science is that we can eliminate theories which are falsified and update them with more accuracy as new data is available. This is how we have eliminated false theories such as Cold Fusion but can reinforce those such as evolution.

Religion claims inerrancy (even when obviously wrong) and there are NO grounds for falsification, meaning, the theist has invented an assertion which is not testable, and therefore, without merit. For instance, their god is un measurable in any way..anything it does is 'justified' (even mass murder) and the reasoning for it is circular, based on the Bible (written by men but supposedly inspired by god, which is the very subject of scrutiny).

It's like saying, 'I am god because this book which I inspired men to write claims I am!'. Of course, that is ridiculous logic.

In summary, a theory is a high state of scientific knowledge...religion does not even make it that far and is instead mere contruct or assertion and a contradictory, error and atrocity-ridden one at that.

[Monte]

Agh! I wanted to go to Ozzfest, but couldn't find anyone else that wanted to go! Everyone (myself included) that I know is going to Street Scene this year, and a lot of people didn't want to spend $100 a piece on two concerts within one week of each other. Oh well, guess I should have asked here. :eek:

How was it? Seems like it would have been hotter'n hell out there.

[Burst]

Nuke made me think (damn you)

If we CANNOT get something from nothing, who does *god* answer to? If something had to have created us, then something had to have created god. Correct? Afterall according to the bible we didn't just spawn from space dust. So how is it possible that god is just there if it is not possible that we are just here?

[NukleoN]

Nuke made me think (damn you)

If we CANNOT get something from nothing, who does *god* answer to? If something had to have created us, then something had to have created god. Correct? Afterall according to the bible we didn't just spawn from space dust. So how is it possible that god is just there if it is not possible that we are just here?

You are absolutely correct with this line of reasoning. :)

Theists who pose the design argument like to make a fuss about 'the Universe coming from nothing' or life 'evolving by pure chance', however, they fail to address the even GREATER problem in their claim that an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent diety made 'all there is', including itself, is more complex than the Universe it supposedly created, and yet 'came from nothing'.

Using Occam's Razor, we can simply eliminate the 'unneeded assertion' of god and say, 'as far as we know, the Universe is all there is' and we can PROVE the Universe exists. Therefore, pending further data, the Universe (which includes everything) is all there is.

The theistic claim that 'god' came 'from nothing' and yet has to be a designer of the Universe begs the question, 'who designed the designer?'. Once the theist admits that the designer (god) stands alone without a designer, then we too can state with confidence that the Universe also stands alone, is self-evident and requires no supernatural assumption. (The Universe falls within natural laws, unlike the assertion of god).

The first thing I usually do with any theistic argument is turn it on itself...lawyers do this all the time as well. ;) It tends to work well, especially in this case.

[Setter32]

I gotta correct you on this one Nuke........... though we're sayin the same thing.......but in different ways.

Gravity and Evolution have "once" been theories........ but they are now facts........period........ since they have tons of repeatable data to back them up. We pretty much have formed a complete picture of these scientific principles.

A "Theory" is basically just a "guess".........with some evidences to back it up. The picture is far from being complete. There are still big gaping holes that needs to be fill. And there can be multiple theories for a particular event.

There can only be one "fact".

"Theory" and "fact" are 2 different animals........

You can have a theory and still have very weak evidences to back it up..................and this may lead you down the wrong path to figuring out the truth.............and this can be just as dangerous as any religious dogmas.

Theory: I'm gonna get laid tonight.........because this girl at work smiled at me with the come hither look.

Fact: I'm gonna be by myself, surfing the porn sites tonight.

..........yeah baby.........



:D

[NukleoN]

Originally posted by Setter32
I gotta correct you on this one Nuke...........

Gravity and Evolution have "once" been theories........ but they are now facts........period........ since they have tons of repeatable data to back them up. We pretty much have formed a complete picture of these scientific principles.<

I am afraid you are only partly correct. This is because of the public misuse of the word theory. A theory is entirely based on facts, so we are not losing ground by calling something a theory...people often throw this word around incorrectly, but if you will note, religion does not even make it to 'theory' but is instead a construct or assertion. An assertion or contruct is not necessarily based on fact.

The reason the term 'theory' is used is not because of a lack of confidence, but to allow new data and falsification of the theory. The theory of Cold Fusion was based on prior knowledge, but the theory was incorrect and was falsified. It is now known to be wrong and so it's usage is discontinued.

A "Theory" is basically just a "guess".........with some evidences to back it up. The picture is far from being complete. There are still big gaping holes that needs to be fill. And there can be multiple theories for a particular event.

A theory is simply an explanation for a body of evidence. It's not necessarily just a 'guess'. The theory of evolution includes many facts...for instance, we have samples of plants from the adjoining Pangeal continent which match, we can prove continental drift and plate tectonics to rationalize where the continents were previously, we can examine DNA and compare ours to a Chimpanzee or anything else (our DNA is nearly 99% similar to that of a Bonobo Chimp, by the way, closer than a rat is to a mouse). We can see the deterioration of our human jawline over time (hence the need to remove wisdom teeth), and we even have a vestigal tail (coccyx)! Of course we get this information from the fossil record. All of the above is based on prior fact...when you assemble these facts together, a theory can be formed to explain it all.

However, we are constantly getting new information. If human fossils are ever found in the same pit with fossils from dinosaurs, for instance, we will have to re-write the theories (but this has not happened). Creationists like to question things like radiation dating, but then again how do they profess to measure the age of their Bibles, ark remnants or the shroud of Turin?

There can only be one "fact".

"Theory" and "fact" are 2 different animals........

I think you're confusing the two..they are related. A theory, as I explained, is merely an explanation for a body of facts. If you ever watch 'Forensic Files' on the Discovery (Science) Channel, you'll see how they find pieces of information and string that together to form a theory...it's a theory based on the evidence, which is real. THis is how we know O.J. killed Ron and Nichole, regardless of the juries most educated opinion on the matter.

>You can have a theory and still have very weak evidences to back it up

Sure, but then that might be just a hypothesis...the theories of evolution, gravity, etc. are most certainly facts with the allowance for the admission of new data. They keep evolving as new data is added, hence the term theory. However, nobody denies gravity and they wouldn't deny evolution but for the offense taken by people reading books with Creation myths.


..................and this may lead you down the wrong path to figuring out the truth.............and this can be just as dangerous as any religious dogmas.

I think you need to research what a theory is a bit, Setter. Any scientist will tell you that science does not deal in absolutes, typically...although some things are so darn reliable that they seem absolute (will the sun 'rise' tomorrow? We don't know for certain, but it is highly likely that it will based on what we know about stars).

It is combination of theories which got us to the moon, but it worked! No amount of prayer would even lift a rocket one inch off the ground...much less get us anywhere.

Theories are simply the way science says, 'facts with room to improve or be falsified'. Good theories just don't get falsified. Bad ones get thrown out....leaving us with an ever more accurate understanding of the world around us.

[Setter32]

Well......I disagree with you on this one Nuke.....

The instructors, classes, a god awful amount of chemistry labs............ (huh....huh huh.....huh huh huh......... I said "god" )....... the PHDs in chemistry I work with........the FDA......... and the texts I have on my desk..........and .....and.....and......the Discovery channel....... tells me differently.

But...... as with the bible........... or any other "book"..........it's ok to disagree......... right?

:D

[NukleoN]

Setter,

A theory, based on a body of FACTS (I emphasize this) can still be a fact.

For instance, during Darwin's time, they weren't able to compare the DNA of a human to other primates, such as a Chimpanzee. Although Darwin made a good case for evolution, we can make a better case for it now as we can show that the difference between the DNA of human and chimp is less than that of monkey and rat, donkey and horse or even Chimp and Gorilla.

This is the 'theory' part. It allows for the 'facts' to kick that much more ass as we gather more data. A theory does not mean it is a guess and necessarily NOT a fact..it's simply the explanation for the body of facts we *have at the moment*. At a certain point, a theory is considered self-evident, even if we still call it a theory. By the way, we CAN witness evolution in different ways, but it's still considered a theory (again, which is a body of facts).

Theists and opposers of evolution love to state that 'evolution' is 'only a theory' (which might be why you think a theory weakens the facts) but they fail to recognize that their religions don't even get to be called 'theories', as they are NOT based on a body of fact but instead rely on circular arguments and appeals to ignorance and mystery.

Anyway...yes, theories can also be facts, and they necessarily include them..they simply allow for more facts in order to fine tune the theory ever more.

[Monte]

Ok, I've only been skimming this thread throughout the day - I'll try to catch up after work :) - but I thought this might be of some interest:

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

Or, it could be that it doesn't apply at all. Like I said, I've just been skimming. Back to work!

[NukleoN]

A scientific theory or law represents an hypothesis, or a group of related hypotheses, which has been confirmed through repeated experimental tests. Theories in physics are often formulated in terms of a few concepts and equations, which are identified with "laws of nature," suggesting their universal applicability. Accepted scientific theories and laws become part of our understanding of the universe and the basis for exploring less well-understood areas of knowledge. Theories are not easily discarded; new discoveries are first assumed to fit into the existing theoretical framework. It is only when, after repeated experimental tests, the new phenomenon cannot be accommodated that scientists seriously question the theory and attempt to modify it. The validity that we attach to scientific theories as representing realities of the physical world is to be contrasted with the facile invalidation implied by the expression, "It's only a theory." For example, it is unlikely that a person will step off a tall building on the assumption that they will not fall, because "Gravity is only a theory."

Changes in scientific thought and theories occur, of course, sometimes revolutionizing our view of the world (Kuhn, 1962). Again, the key force for change is the scientific method, and its emphasis on experiment.

Pay special attention to this line:



For example, it is unlikely that a person will step off a tall building on the assumption that they will not fall, because "Gravity is only a theory."



This shows that although a theory allows for new data, it can still be a fact and is necessarily based on prior fact (tested hypotheses as they're calling it).

If we someday discover anti-gravity, we will have to change the theory/law of gravity a bit, but it doesn't take away from gravity's very real existence.

[Setter32]

Yes....... and most texts will tell you the same thing. It's contradicting some of your points on treating a theory in the same manner as a fact. A theory can be proven wrong and revised........ therefore it's not fact........ therefore you can't treat it as such. The text does not tell you........nor will there ever be a text that will say " theory = fact "........... as I said before 2 diff animals.

A theory can be proven wrong........can be revised.

A fact can not........... 2+2 = 4........ prove it wrong (with scientific principles and experiments)........... you can't.......... therefore it's a fact.

Big Bang.......... prove it wrong........it's possible........therefore it's a theory.

Anything outside of a "fact" is a guess........ or an educated guess........ to put it in simple terms.

Put what ever fancy label you want on it.............. in its raw form........... a theory is an educated guess based on a set of data.......

If a theory is the absolute truth, then it would be a fact......and no longer a theory.

To treat a theory as an absolute truth is folly.......... any scientist will tell you that. You can assume that it is true to test certain hypothesis............ but it is still an "assumption".


Alllllright............. I see you falling asleep out there.........

:D

[shearer216]

So whats a hypothesis?:D Its all so confusing!

[Setter32]

A hypothesis is an explanation that has not been tested sufficiently...........

Let me elaborate....

Sorta like......... I see you walking down the street.....
The next day.......I see you walking down the street......
And the next........ and so on....... for a month.......

From this....... I hypothesize that you walk..... because you're unable to run............

I know....... very weak....... but it's a start.

That's how most of our understanding of the universe get started.........believe it or not.

A Theory is much stronger.......... it has been proven again and again...............and the really strong ones.........becomes law. I disagree with the author in the link....... in terms that he's giving the impression that a theory is automatically "law".......not so.
A theory always has the possibility of being proven wrong. There can be multiple and different conflicting theories to explain a certain reaction or event........but there is only one law. There can not be conflicting laws..........but there can be conflicting theories.

Did I confuse you more?..........so sorry........

:D

[NukleoN]

As I said, and I cannot make it any more clear than this:

A theory is an explanation for a body of FACTS. Just because a fact is updated with new information does NOT in any way undermine the previous validity of that fact.

Again, Darwin was right about evolution when he first brought it up, but now we know MUCH MORE than he did. Therefore, the fact has more supporting data. You seem to be stuck on the idea that a theory is too weak and is therefore just a guess. By the way, there are facts...but a theory is a new fact which is forming based on the gathering of previous facts. So yes, you could call evolution a fact AND a theory, but it's still a theory, and as someone who is skeptical, I do subscribe fully to the evolutionary theory because it would ludicrous to deny all the supporting facts.

I think Bertrand Russell said, 'A fact is something so well supported in evidence that it would be ludicrous to withhold assent'.

One more thing! A theory has 'rules' for falsification, but that doesn't mean one theory is as likely to be falsified as another. Meaning, we allow for falsification (Scientific method DEMANDS this), but this does NOT mean it will happen if the theory is so well established that falsification becomes highly unlikely. As for math, that is an absolute and can be proved absolutely, but most things are not absolute. :)

So Setter, let's agree to call evolution a fact AND a theory (which simply allows for new facts), because as you know, they are still finding fossils out there and theory of evolution IS still being updated..NOT falsified, but updated. In fact, recent finds show that Neandertal traveled MUCH more than previously thought. The out of Africa theory has also taken precendence over the concurrent evolution theory (Homo Sapiens).

The theory (like all theories) is being updated...and hence my point...you have to allow for new data...and calling something a theory does not make it insecure.

[shearer216]

"From now on, let's only debate this on the board...if you have questions, I want everyone to benefit from the answers...too much time otherwise and I want to make sure you don't 'forget' the points I have already made. :)"
Nukleon


Cool Nuke but my brain is fried Im through w/ this debate (for now)

;) Man, I need to talk about motorcycles now!

Oh yeah, Setter, I was just joking, (poorly) but thanks for the explanation:D
steve

[NukleoN]

Frankly this is taking a lot of my time..I gotta do some music! =P~

[Retrostrike]

Sorry it took so long to replay to all the rebutals. But I do intend to reply to all of them...one at a time lol.

Evolutionist - believes that the earth was "created" through the evolution theory.

There are so many facts that break that apart. First off, consider the woodpecker. Darwin stated in his thesis that all life forms must be brought down to their original species one step at a time. So for evolution to work in any sense, a creature can only evolve one step at a time.

The woodpecker has 6 major changes to itself to allow it to eat food. All these must have been placed within the very makeup of the woodpecker for it to function properly and with the efficency it has today.

Sharp beak - to peck into trees
Knowledge - theres food in the trees
Sharp Claws - to hold itself to the tree
Tail - to prop itself up to peck for food
Special Muscles - to hold its brain in place, so when it pecks, its brain won't turn to mush
Tongue - which shoots out into the tree to get its food, and when pecking the tongue wraps itself around its brain to hold it even firmer in place when pecking

All these things must have happened at once to allow for the woodpecker to even eat. You cannot take one thing away from it or it would fail at what it does. Thus proving they were made for a specific reason.

Through scientific studies and tests, it is impossible to create life from nothing and it would be impossible to create life from the gases that were present at the beginning of the earth.

What you watch or read in articles is not absolute truth.
"Lucy" or the so called half ape - half man thing was made up of 13 different chimp bones.

The Skull recently found in africa doesn't even fit on the evolutionary tree, because they say that it's older than the so-called "Lucy", yet it has more humanistic features than Lucy. Lol, of course it does, because Lucy was a really deformed chimp.

If you read every article about evolution, the beginning article has the supposable find, the middle the discussion, and the end of the article really tells you what happened and what the skeptics say.

European countries don't even teach evolution in schools anymore.

They said it took the Grand Canyon billions of years to form.
Yet Mount Saint Helen erupted and formed a Canyon 1/40th the size of the Grand Canyon, and it to had layers just as the Grand Canyon does, and it took all of 1 hour to be made.

You say that there is tons of evidence that proves evolution,
So if there is so much evidence, why is evolution still a theory?
Can we see evolution happening today? Why not?
If we evolved, should not other creatures be evolving as we speak? Yet I haven't seen any, nor have I heard of anything happening.

There is a difference between MicroEvolution and MacroEvolution.

You guys question God as if he were merely human, as if he was on your level of thinking. You make him sound like he's a spoiled child, that if he doesn't get his way he's gonna destory the lot of us.

But what we fail to remember is that we have done more against God than is imaginable, and yet he still gave his Son, so that all who believe could have everlasting life.

So what if we live 80 - 90 years... big deal compared to forever.

The big misconception is that people believe you go to hell because you've sinned. Wrong, the bible clearly states that all have fallen short of the glory of God. Thus if we have all fallen and are now separated from God forever, how then do we get back in the presence of God?

The Answer is Jesus Christ. To believe in him, to acknowledge that he died on the cross for all our sins and accept forgiveness.

The Bible was translated from the regular Hebrew/Aramiac/Greek text into the version we have today, with a 99.99% accuracy.

The Bible is the only book that has 66 books written by 40 authors over a perion of 1500 years on 3 different continents.

No other book can boast that, and yet for the 2000 years that it's been out, not one person can prove that the bible is wrong.

Famous scientists, such as Boyle, Einstien, etc. were true bible believing Christians.

The Bible tells that the world is round before Christohper Columbus even came into the world [Isaiah 40:22].

One scientist said that science doesn't disprove God: it only finds out what God has already done.

Recent studies have shown that we now know of 10 dimensions rather then the supposable 4. I'm curious as to what those other 6 hold for us.

Scientists in Australia have found that Time is no longer a constant. And through scientific experiments, have proven that time is shortening. So there goes that theory.

If one believes in Theories, than one must be subject to change, for theories will always change. Yet the Bible has not changed for 2000 years.

Noah and the Ark - God destoryed the world because it was sinful.
Those little children that you say were so innocent, went to heaven. The bible does speak of an age of reasoning. The animals' death is no different than when you kill an animal to eat it. And the people were blemished. In Genesis Chapter 6 it tells you why.

There is a lot of theological discussions here, but mainly what I get is people's own opinion about things, and not hard cold evidence that proves there is no God.

Let's say for speculative reasons that you're all right, and that God doesn't exist and that when we die we die into nothingness. Great, then either way I'm still kewl.

Let's say that Hinduism is the correct religion. They believe that we get reincarnated over and over again, but everone goes to heaven. Great again, doesn't matter what I do I'm still kewl.

Let's say Mormonism is the correct religion. Well, they believe in the 3 separate heavens, and that no matter what, you'll go to one of those heavens. Sweeeeet I'm still good to go.

Let's say that the Koran is the correct way. Well, they state that pretty much if you're a good person, you'll go to heaven. Kewl, as a Christian I'm still good to go.

But let's say I'm right in what I say, and that the only way to be with God is to believe that his Son Jesus Christ came to earth, was beat down so badly that he was deformed as a man, was whipped with a cat of 9 tales 39 times, had his clothes riped from his body and lots were casted for them, had to carry his cross to his own death, was nailed on that very same cross...he carried upon him the sins of the world, although he was innocent of all wrong doing. And if what the Word of God says is right, what then will you say to him? What excuse will you say to him then?
Could anyone even give him one? I think not.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever should believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world throught him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemed already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

And yes I have 3 sisters, all are married though. Sorry

[NukleoN]

Originally posted by Retrostrike
Sorry it took so long to replay to all the rebutals. But I do intend to reply to all of them...one at a time lol.

May I ask Retro, what church do you belong to?

Through scientific studies and tests, it is impossible to create life from nothing and it would be impossible to create life from the gases that were present at the beginning of the earth.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So then tell me, dear Retro, how is it that your GOD, who is more complex than the entire Universe (which it would HAVE to be in order to create it) is able to create itself from nothing? Who created your god?

What you watch or read in articles is not absolute truth.
"Lucy" or the so called half ape - half man thing was made up of 13 different chimp bones.

The Skull recently found in africa doesn't even fit on the evolutionary tree, because they say that it's older than the so-called "Lucy", yet it has more humanistic features than Lucy. Lol, of course it does, because Lucy was a really deformed chimp.

I guess your god didn't plant the fossils in a way where it is obvious what pieces go together. Pray tell, Retro, why is your god planting fossils to make it appear that evolution is true if it created everything?

If you read every article about evolution, the beginning article has the supposable find,

'Supposable' is not a word.

European countries don't even teach evolution in schools anymore.

False. America is one of the most religious countries for how developed it is. England is becoming more and more atheist and of course they teach evolution. Only people who are Creationists (such as yourself) even have a problem with it, though not all Christians take issue with evolution.

They said it took the Grand Canyon billions of years to form. Yet Mount Saint Helen erupted and formed a Canyon 1/40th the size of the Grand Canyon, and it to had layers just as the Grand Canyon does, and it took all of 1 hour to be made.

This shows you the power of nature. And yes, based on the strata of the Grand Canyon, it probably took a long time. How does this prove your all powerful, all knowing space pixie created itself and flung the Universe into motion, only to be consumed with our sex lives?

You say that there is tons of evidence that proves evolution, So if there is so much evidence, why is evolution still a theory?

Clearly you are NOT reading the huge amount of discussion we had about theories. A theory, for the billionth time, is an explanation of a body of facts. Religion, my friend, is not even theory. By the way, ask yourself why you have a vestigal tail (coccyx) or why your loving god built whales to live 100% of the time in water, yet they are forced to come to the surface to breathe air. Ask your god why he built in vestigal hip bones into whales and why they have 5 digits in their pectoral fins. Yes please ask your almighty and then ask him why he killed every living thing on the planet except for Noah and his family by drowning. Please..and then you can debunk evolution some more to show how god exists...not.

Can we see evolution happening today? Why not?

Of course. Read up at www.talkorigins.org. There is a FAQ there for this tired Creationist argument. We can compare DNA...did your god intend to make us nearly 99% identical to Bonobo Chimps? Is he teasing us or just stupid?

If we evolved, should not other creatures be evolving as we speak? Yet I haven't seen any, nor have I heard of anything happening.

Have you had your wisdom teeth pulled lately? Ever wonder why they no longer fit our jaws? Ever wonder why you can remove an appendix and you don't miss it? Why do you have a tailbone, for godly fashion? Why did your god design us to be nearly 99% similar genetically to Chimps?

There is a difference between MicroEvolution and MacroEvolution.

Sounds to me like you accept evolution, you've even found two types. Of COURSE there is evolution on a small scale...have you ever seen a wolf morph into a dog? No, but dogs are the cousins of wolves...evolution is change over time..notice the word TIME in there. Speciation, however, HAS been observed...

Excerpt from TalkOrigins..

'Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory.'

You guys question God as if he were merely human, as if he was on your level of thinking. You make him sound like he's a spoiled child, that if he doesn't get his way he's gonna destory the lot of us.

Any god which KILLS EVERYTHING on Earth except one family is one giant, scary, stupid angry toddler. And you question evolution? Please explain how your god MADE ITSELF and then went on to fling the Universe into motion. PLease then explain where your god came from...oh I see..would that be nothing?

Also, if you don't understand the mind of god, how do you claim to know what it thinks or wants? Maybe its goal is to fool YOU with all those fossils and reward atheists for using the mind it gave it...ever think of that?

But what we fail to remember is that we have done more against God than is imaginable, and yet he still gave his Son, so that all who believe could have everlasting life.

I see, so God, in order to protect us from his own wrath, sent himself down in the form of his own son, in human form, had himself killed (which he knew would happen), after which you are saved from himself if you accept his disguise. Does this make sense, Retro? No, it does not...your story does not make sense. By the way, would you happen to be Catholic? If not, why not? Why does your belief differ from Shearer's or Luke's or any other theist? Why are you not a Muslim...because you weren't told to be a Muslim?

So what if we live 80 - 90 years... big deal compared to forever.

And what a mistake it is to wildly assume that when we die, we ascend to some magical place and live forever. Exactly what the 9-11 terrorists were thinking, except they needed to kill us to get to their highest heaven.

The big misconception is that people believe you go to hell because you've sinned.

A bigger misconception is that you believe in a fairy tale and haven't bothered to question it, while you maintain atheism for all relgions outside your culture. How convenient. It's called cultural relativism...how can you be so sure your religion is the correct one? How do you know you are not going to the Hell of Islam...what, does Jesus/God/Holy Ghost talk to you?

Wrong, the bible clearly states that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

The Bible also clearly states that a hare chews its cud, a bat is a bird, Pi is 3 instead of 3.14, that the Earth has 4 corners, that slavery is ok, that women caused the downfall of humanity, that it is ok for god to kill everything on the planet as it wishes, that god cannot stop an iron chariot, that people live to 900 years and that snakes and bushes can talk.

It's wrong about that as well.

Thus if we have all fallen and are now separated from God forever, how then do we get back in the presence of God?

Sacrifice your mind to the altar of faith....just BELIEVE! Heh. That's compelling.

The Answer is Jesus Christ. To believe in him, to acknowledge that he died on the cross for all our sins and accept forgiveness.

Again, if Jesus is God, then God is protecting us from HIMSELF via his disguise, himself as his own son. Sounds worse than a mafia racket. If Jesus is NOT god and is separate from god, then you're now a polytheist..congratulations, bonus god! DOUBLE PRIZES!

The Bible was translated from the regular Hebrew/Aramiac/Greek text into the version we have today, with a 99.99% accuracy.

Except for the fact that the Bible is wrong in so many places as I just mentioned, and you better not forget this because I will keep reminding you.

The Bible is the only book that has 66 books written by 40 authors over a perion of 1500 years on 3 different continents.

40 ANONYMOUS authors. That's quite compelling. All that and it isn't all that convincing. It seems like your all powerful superbeing can't get his facts straight either. You would think this god creature KNOWS ahead of time who is going to Hell or not, so what is the point to this accepting Jesus racket anyhow? Now if god really wants to show itself..have it spontaneously levitate everyone while simultaneously curing all disease and eliminating all suffering. Of course you would never dare 'test' god, that would be too easy to refute.

No other book can boast that,

I can boast that I gain my morality from being a good person, not fear of an invisible space spook. I also use my mind instead of letting some preacher think for me. Last I checked, you can't really ask questions in church and you are discouraged from DOUBT. Yes, a beggar teaches that it is good to give.

and yet for the 2000 years that it's been out, not one person can prove that the bible is wrong.

Sure we can...it's easy. Since your god is supposed to be PERFECT, all I need do is find ONE SINGLE ERROR in the bible and your god fails to be perfect. You would then be forced to concede that MEN wrote the Bible, which is correct.

Here we go..are you ready? Here's one:



Leviticus 11
6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

For your information, hares don't chew cud. God is wrong. He's not perfect and by definition, not god.

Want more?

Psalm 14
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is patently false. One good atheist disproves this. Edison was an atheist. He was a good person and helped all of humanity with his inventions. Edison said, 'Relgion is all bunk'.

Ok one more...

Judges 1
19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

YOUR GOD IS A WUSSBAG! No really...your supposedly perfect and all powerful god just can't seem to drive out chariots of iron. I suppose that also rules our titanium, steel, carbon fiber and various other strong materials a chariot could be built out of. The Bible itself ADMITS that god is not all powerful. I guess you better explain this one FAST. Note, you cannot change the Bible. It's there for all to see...sorry.

Famous scientists, such as Boyle, Einstien, etc. were true bible believing Christians.

Einstein was an atheist...

Albert Einstein, German born American threoretical physicist (1879-1955).
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." [From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, published by Princeton University Press.

And by the way, regardless of what authority you to try to attain with certain 'believers', THIS DOES NOT PROVE YOUR CLAIM OF GOD!

The Bible tells that the world is round before Christohper Columbus even came into the world [Isaiah 40:22].

Apparently your god thinks a 'circle' has corners! Look

Isaiah 11
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

And..

Revelation 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Gee, I think your god is a mite confused.

One scientist said that science doesn't disprove God: it only finds out what God has already done.

Stephen Hawking said, 'There is no room for god'. By the way, how does this prove your extraordinary claim for god? The world is waiting...2000 years and no proof...

Recent studies have shown that we now know of 10 dimensions rather then the supposable 4. I'm curious as to what those other 6 hold for us.

This does not prove your god. You seem to like science though. Logic tells us that your god definition is self-negating.

Scientists in Australia have found that Time is no longer a constant. And through scientific experiments, have proven that time is shortening. So there goes that theory.

I question how this proves your god? If time isn't a constant, then why did god take 6 'periods' of it to make the Earth? Why did your all powerful god have to 'rest' on the seventh day or at all? Last I checked, all powerful beings don't exist but certainly should not require mortal 'rest'.

If one believes in Theories, than one must be subject to change, for theories will always change. Yet the Bible has not changed for 2000 years.

And that my friend, is why it appears to be so ridiculous to the modern mind. Shearer do you see yet why I want to keep this public? Every Christians seems to play back the same exact tape of trained inculcation.

Noah and the Ark - God destoryed the world because it was sinful.

Which is why your god is EVIL....assuming for the sake of debate that it actually exists. You see, god destroyed ALL living things except Noah and his family..this means BABIES and ALL PREGNANCIES. Now it is one thing for humans to abort their pregnancies..but GOD, who supposedly (not supposably) put them there in the first place, KNOWING he would drown them later? Your god is quite the rascal.

Those little children that you say were so innocent, went to heaven.

Not if they didn't accept Jesus, right? What about atheist children, what happened to them? Animals? E-Coli...did all the E-coli go to Heaven too?

The bible does speak of an age of reasoning.


The Bible doesn't speak much reason at all.

The animals' death is no different than when you kill an animal to eat it. And the people were blemished. In Genesis Chapter 6 it tells you why.

I suppose every animal, insect, bacteria and virus that ever lived is also in heaven? What a mess! Is every sperm in heaven too? What about any AIDS viruses that were killed..that is a form of life. Heaven?

There is a lot of theological discussions here, but mainly what I get is people's own opinion about things, and not hard cold evidence that proves there is no God.

Of course you don't want evidence that there's no god....LOGICALLY, your god is easily disproved because one can show that the definition is corrupt. A definition that contradicts itself is void.

Let's say for speculative reasons that you're all right, and that God doesn't exist and that when we die we die into nothingness. Great, then either way I'm still kewl.

Yes, but you better stop all that praying and preaching and do something cool, like ride around on yer SV. I sense Pascal's Wager coming on...

Let's say that Hinduism is the correct religion. They believe that we get reincarnated over and over again, but everone goes to heaven. Great again, doesn't matter what I do I'm still kewl.

You will go to Hindu Hell. So will I...however, if it doesn't matter if you believe, then it doesn't matter if I am Christian now does it?

Let's say Mormonism is the correct religion. Well, they believe in the 3 separate heavens, and that no matter what, you'll go to one of those heavens. Sweeeeet I'm still good to go.

Aren't we all?

Let's say that the Koran is the correct way. Well, they state that pretty much if you're a good person, you'll go to heaven. Kewl, as a Christian I'm still good to go.

The Koran is pretty violent. You're going straight to the Hell of Islam.

But let's say I'm right in what I say, and that the only way to be with God is to believe that his Son Jesus Christ came to earth, was beat down so badly that he was deformed as a man, was whipped with a cat of 9 tales 39 times,

Heh...S&M Jesus..

had his clothes riped from his body

Gad did he smell that bad?

and lots were casted for them, had to carry his cross to his own death, was nailed on that very same cross...he carried upon him the sins of the world, although he was innocent of all wrong doing. And if what the Word of God says is right, what then will you say to him? What excuse will you say to him then?
Could anyone even give him one? I think not.

Well since you are WRONG and there is no god, you are wasting your time praying, debunking the fact/theory of evolution, debating with atheists who debate you into the ground, giving money to churches which teach lies and silliness and sometimes harbor child molesters, learning 'Creationist' teachings which make you sound straight out of the Dark Ages, offended by science when it contradicts your story, brainwashing your kids into believing something that isn't true and duped into living in a very sheltered, restricted way based on a 2000 year old fairy tale which tells you to deny your intellect and worship invisible beings.

I'd say you better figure it out soon before you waste any more time.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever should believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world throught him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemed already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

:-&

Sez you.

Thank you drive through please.



=P~

[Setter32]

Damn it Luke..........

I had to read through all that verbage....... just to get to your answer about the sistas?...............

Advice Luke........... If you're gonna debate about how "factual" the bible is............. you need to come in with hard data.

Quotes from the bible does not..........I repeat........does not constitute hard data.

As for the "theory" of evolution............. the data is out there.........all over the place................. if you choose to see it. But that's the key isn't it Luke...............if you choose to see it. If you don't want to see the hard data........... it could be tattooed to your forehead........and you will not see it. Please excuse me.........I do not mean this as an insult. But every......and I mean every.......debate I have gone into with theist.......... they have refuse to see the overwhelming data I present to them in front of their face..........sorta like the OJ jurors......

Let us say that the "theory" of evolution is wrong................ as I have asked before...........and still have not been answered yet.................... Do you propose that we are a result of incest?.......... Because that was what had to happen............brothers did sisters........mother did sons...........father did daughters.........Adam did live for a very long time according to the book.....right?...........Did it mentioned how many daughters.......or granddaughters.......or great granddaughters.......that he copulated with? Or......which brother did which sister..... ? Any....... info.......?

And isn't this (incest) also wrong........... according to the bible.

So we are the result of repeated violations of one of the laws put forth by the "man".

Why do the theist always shy away from this question?

To a more interesting note.....

How about a cousin......... of the female persuasion..........you got one of those?

:D

[PasCaTT]

but definitely something odd. If I recall correctly..

Adam and Eve had Kain and Abel - we're okay here because no one said that Adam and Eve were related...unless the whole rib thing actually makes them blood relatives, which I guess you can make an argument for.

Kain kills Abel and goes to the Land of Nod (where ever that is) and finds his wife. What I want to know is where this wife came from. At this point in "history" we only have 4..well I guess really 3 since one is dead..people accounted for. Where did Kain's wife come from? Anyway, maybe incest isn't necessarily the answer.

The bible seems to just make people up as they need them. Where do they come from? They were just there. I mean..if you can blindly accept the rest of it, what's a few unaccounted for people just appearing?

[Setter32]

Wait a minute......... now I'm confused.

According to the bible.......... the whole human race stemmed from Adam and Eve......... right?

Supposedly there are no other families around............. because in the begining there were only Adam and Eve.........

So their children would have to do each other......... in order to propagate......... right?

If there was another woman from somewhere............ then Adam and Eve were not the first humans?............ Who made the other humans?.............. when?............. and what about their children?.................Where did they find their mates?..........

Did they have cousins???

:D

[NukleoN]

Here's another example..

Take Noah and his family. They were the only humans who survived god's wonderful flood where he killed every other living